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100% this. I've set up several new Macs lately. It's essential to skip any step that asks you to provide an AppleID unless you want a world of hurt. If you wan

100% this. I've set up several new Macs lately. It's essential to skip any step that asks you to provide an AppleID unless you want a world of hurt. If you want iCloud or Apple Music you can set those up with your AppleID later (I cannot imagine wanting iCloud but that's just me).

zibzab 5y ago
What kind of stupidly is this? Did Apple hire the guy in charge of Windows 10 user accounts?
- emerongi 5y ago
  It could be the other way around: Microsoft hired the Apple guy and let them run wild.
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    To my knowledge, Apple has never tried to force a user to use it's cloud services. You just skip any step referencing a cloud account during setup. This is not true of Microsoft. >Windows 10 users are annoyed that Microsoft has hidden the local account option when setting up a new PC or reinstalling Windows 10. A user on a popular Reddit thread notes that the local account option is now invisible if the device is connected to the internet. https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsoft-wheres-our-local-account-option-gone/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsof...
    - inetknght 5y ago
      > Apple has never tried to force a user to use it's cloud services. I would argue that making the use of cloud services be the default forces users who aren't aware that it's optional and especially when they don't know that there *are* real downsides to using it.
      - GeekyBear 5y ago
        There is a huge difference between offering the option of a local account or a cloud account as Apple does, and removing the option of a local account altogether, as Microsoft has done. The button to skip that step in Apple's setup wizard is even labeled "Set this up later" to make it clear that the user isn't giving up the ability to use a cloud account later by skipping the step during the setup wizard.
        inetknght 5y ago
        > The button to skip that step in Apple's setup wizard is even labeled "Set this up later" to make it clear that the user isn't giving up the ability to use a cloud account later by skipping the step during the setup wizard. No, but on the other hand there are plenty of services where "later" means "nag me" and "stop functioning after a certain amount of time" It would be better and clearer if Apple simply and clearly stated "iCloud account is optional and not required to use your Mac"
        GeekyBear 5y ago
        >on the other hand there are plenty of services where "later" means "nag me" and "stop functioning after a certain amount of time" Offering an easily skippable option during setup is not the same thing as the intentional dark patterns common on other platforms. >In this report, we analyze a sample of settings in Facebook, Google and Windows 10, and show how default settings and dark patterns, techniques and features of interface design meant to manipulate users, are used to nudge users towards privacy intrusive options. The findings include privacy intrusive default settings, misleading wording, giving users an illusion of control, hiding away privacy-friendly choices, take-it-or-leave-it choices, and choice architectures where choosing the privacy friendly option requires more effort for the users. https://www.forbrukerradet.no/undersokelse/no-undersokelsekategori/deceived-by-design https://www.forbrukerradet.no/undersokelse/no-undersokelseka...
    - cloudwizard 5y ago
      I hate the fact that Apple kept asking me to accept the terms of service for Itunes. I have no intention of using Itunes. I would remove Itunes and many other Apple Crapware from my computer if I could.
      - simonh 5y ago
        Why did you install iTunes in the first place? It’s an optional download and doesn’t come pre-installed. To remove iTunes, drag it’s icon in the Applications folder to the recycling bin.
        glandium 5y ago
        AFAIR, it's not an optional download. You can remove it, but it comes pre-installed. I even wouldn't be surprised if it comes back after upgrades.
        GekkePrutser 5y ago
        In fact iTunes no longer exists in the last two macOS releases. It was split into the videos and music apps and the iOS recovery stuff was moved to finder. iTunes now only exists on Windows. The iTunes store still exists though. Which is probably what the agreement stuff was for.
      - PascLeRasc 5y ago
        I haven’t tried it but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t delete any stock application. I’d try doing it through terminal and then as sudo or without SIP if that didn’t work. But this post describes a straightforward way: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/47253/can-i-safely-uninstall-itunes-from-my-mac https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/47253/can-i-safely...
      - sneak 5y ago
        Install Little Snitch, and disable the built in allow rules for all of the Apple and iCloud stuff. Each time an Apple process tries to connect, make a rule that says that app is never allowed to connect to any server, and set the rule lifetime to "forever". There are about 20-30 Apple processes in macOS that phone home even if you don't use iCloud, iMessage, or FaceTime, or the App Store. Once you block all of them your computer will be quiet on the network.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    It could also be that cloud accounts on local computers are a bad idea and implementations will be bad no matter who does it.
    - lupire 5y ago
      Chromebook seems to work without constantly locking people out.
arboghast 5y ago
I had the same feeling about iCloud before I had a Mac and just a iPhone, but now that I have a Mac and that there are features such as “Sign-in with Apple” and “Hide My Email”, I can’t imagine living without. Apple Books is also a great eReader for PDFs and ePubs on macOS and iPad/iPhone which provides syncing across all devices. Not just the books themselves but also the chapters you’re at, bookmarks, notes, etc. I suggest revisiting and if it’s not for you, that’s fine. But otherwise, yeah never sign-in with Apple. At least they are not agressive about it, unlike Windows 10 or even 11 home which doesn’t even allow local accounts.
- amiantos 5y ago
  Apple Books also syncs position in your own epubs, unlike my new Kobo Sage which’ll only sync reading position in books you’ve bought from Kobo. I still love my Kobo Sage and feel like managing my library with Calibre is better than Apple Books. But the iCloud syncing experience with Apple Books is clearly superior. People give Apple a lot of shit for their built in apps not being great (which is a good argument against them having a monopoly on iOS) but at least they nailed Books syncing.
  - arboghast 5y ago
    Some of their engineers must really love books, and others really hate podcasts.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Apple Books sends what you're reading, and how often, and when (and approximately where, via client geoip) along with your unchangeable device hardware serial number to Apple. Remember when librarians basically revolted because the patriot act let the feds get library borrowing records without a warrant? Apple's Books app is several times worse. It's nonconsensual spyware, even if you use only your own local files and never engage in trade with Apple for ebooks. Don't use it.
- sneak 5y ago
  iCloud enables the (effectively unencrypted) iCloud Backup automatically on iOS, which sends a complete effectively unencrypted copy of almost everything on your device to Apple every night when charging. Apple can decrypt the entire thing without you, your password, or your device. They do this when they receive a warrant, and they do this 20,000+ times a year for warrantless requests (no probable cause) from the USG, too. This includes all your photos (effectively unencrypted) and all your iMessages and attachments. Nothing really important on your iPhone is private from Apple. Also, if your cc fails for whatever reason, you will get locked out of your Apple ID, and won't be able to log in to or use any of the services you use Sign in with Apple on. Bad, bad tradeoff.
upbeat_general 5y ago
Is there a reason having a local login + apple services is much better than the “default” Apple ID login account? Obviously this issue of needing to change accounts is problematic and I can see resetting your account password through your Apple ID to be a pro/con depending on the person. Is there something else I’m missing?

zibzab 5y ago

What kind of stupidly is this? Did Apple hire the guy in charge of Windows 10 user accounts?

emerongi 5y ago
It could be the other way around: Microsoft hired the Apple guy and let them run wild.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  To my knowledge, Apple has never tried to force a user to use it's cloud services. You just skip any step referencing a cloud account during setup. This is not true of Microsoft. >Windows 10 users are annoyed that Microsoft has hidden the local account option when setting up a new PC or reinstalling Windows 10. A user on a popular Reddit thread notes that the local account option is now invisible if the device is connected to the internet. https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsoft-wheres-our-local-account-option-gone/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsof...
  - inetknght 5y ago
    > Apple has never tried to force a user to use it's cloud services. I would argue that making the use of cloud services be the default forces users who aren't aware that it's optional and especially when they don't know that there *are* real downsides to using it.
    - GeekyBear 5y ago
      There is a huge difference between offering the option of a local account or a cloud account as Apple does, and removing the option of a local account altogether, as Microsoft has done. The button to skip that step in Apple's setup wizard is even labeled "Set this up later" to make it clear that the user isn't giving up the ability to use a cloud account later by skipping the step during the setup wizard.
      - inetknght 5y ago
        > The button to skip that step in Apple's setup wizard is even labeled "Set this up later" to make it clear that the user isn't giving up the ability to use a cloud account later by skipping the step during the setup wizard. No, but on the other hand there are plenty of services where "later" means "nag me" and "stop functioning after a certain amount of time" It would be better and clearer if Apple simply and clearly stated "iCloud account is optional and not required to use your Mac"
        GeekyBear 5y ago
        >on the other hand there are plenty of services where "later" means "nag me" and "stop functioning after a certain amount of time" Offering an easily skippable option during setup is not the same thing as the intentional dark patterns common on other platforms. >In this report, we analyze a sample of settings in Facebook, Google and Windows 10, and show how default settings and dark patterns, techniques and features of interface design meant to manipulate users, are used to nudge users towards privacy intrusive options. The findings include privacy intrusive default settings, misleading wording, giving users an illusion of control, hiding away privacy-friendly choices, take-it-or-leave-it choices, and choice architectures where choosing the privacy friendly option requires more effort for the users. https://www.forbrukerradet.no/undersokelse/no-undersokelsekategori/deceived-by-design https://www.forbrukerradet.no/undersokelse/no-undersokelseka...
  - cloudwizard 5y ago
    I hate the fact that Apple kept asking me to accept the terms of service for Itunes. I have no intention of using Itunes. I would remove Itunes and many other Apple Crapware from my computer if I could.
    - simonh 5y ago
      Why did you install iTunes in the first place? It’s an optional download and doesn’t come pre-installed. To remove iTunes, drag it’s icon in the Applications folder to the recycling bin.
      - glandium 5y ago
        AFAIR, it's not an optional download. You can remove it, but it comes pre-installed. I even wouldn't be surprised if it comes back after upgrades.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        In fact iTunes no longer exists in the last two macOS releases. It was split into the videos and music apps and the iOS recovery stuff was moved to finder. iTunes now only exists on Windows. The iTunes store still exists though. Which is probably what the agreement stuff was for.
    - PascLeRasc 5y ago
      I haven’t tried it but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t delete any stock application. I’d try doing it through terminal and then as sudo or without SIP if that didn’t work. But this post describes a straightforward way: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/47253/can-i-safely-uninstall-itunes-from-my-mac https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/47253/can-i-safely...
    - sneak 5y ago
      Install Little Snitch, and disable the built in allow rules for all of the Apple and iCloud stuff. Each time an Apple process tries to connect, make a rule that says that app is never allowed to connect to any server, and set the rule lifetime to "forever". There are about 20-30 Apple processes in macOS that phone home even if you don't use iCloud, iMessage, or FaceTime, or the App Store. Once you block all of them your computer will be quiet on the network.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  It could also be that cloud accounts on local computers are a bad idea and implementations will be bad no matter who does it.
  - lupire 5y ago
    Chromebook seems to work without constantly locking people out.

arboghast 5y ago

I had the same feeling about iCloud before I had a Mac and just a iPhone, but now that I have a Mac and that there are features such as “Sign-in with Apple” and “Hide My Email”, I can’t imagine living without. Apple Books is also a great eReader for PDFs and ePubs on macOS and iPad/iPhone which provides syncing across all devices. Not just the books themselves but also the chapters you’re at, bookmarks, notes, etc. I suggest revisiting and if it’s not for you, that’s fine. But otherwise, yeah never sign-in with Apple. At least they are not agressive about it, unlike Windows 10 or even 11 home which doesn’t even allow local accounts.

amiantos 5y ago
Apple Books also syncs position in your own epubs, unlike my new Kobo Sage which’ll only sync reading position in books you’ve bought from Kobo. I still love my Kobo Sage and feel like managing my library with Calibre is better than Apple Books. But the iCloud syncing experience with Apple Books is clearly superior. People give Apple a lot of shit for their built in apps not being great (which is a good argument against them having a monopoly on iOS) but at least they nailed Books syncing.
- arboghast 5y ago
  Some of their engineers must really love books, and others really hate podcasts.
- sneak 5y ago
  Apple Books sends what you're reading, and how often, and when (and approximately where, via client geoip) along with your unchangeable device hardware serial number to Apple. Remember when librarians basically revolted because the patriot act let the feds get library borrowing records without a warrant? Apple's Books app is several times worse. It's nonconsensual spyware, even if you use only your own local files and never engage in trade with Apple for ebooks. Don't use it.
sneak 5y ago
iCloud enables the (effectively unencrypted) iCloud Backup automatically on iOS, which sends a complete effectively unencrypted copy of almost everything on your device to Apple every night when charging. Apple can decrypt the entire thing without you, your password, or your device. They do this when they receive a warrant, and they do this 20,000+ times a year for warrantless requests (no probable cause) from the USG, too. This includes all your photos (effectively unencrypted) and all your iMessages and attachments. Nothing really important on your iPhone is private from Apple. Also, if your cc fails for whatever reason, you will get locked out of your Apple ID, and won't be able to log in to or use any of the services you use Sign in with Apple on. Bad, bad tradeoff.

upbeat_general 5y ago

Is there a reason having a local login + apple services is much better than the “default” Apple ID login account? Obviously this issue of needing to change accounts is problematic and I can see resetting your account password through your Apple ID to be a pro/con depending on the person. Is there something else I’m missing?