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Please get off your privileged high horse; most people aren't living in proper democracies, unfortunately.

dmitriid 5y ago
The absolute vast majority of people in the world live in countries with functioning governments. Whether or not they are "proper democracies" is really beside the point because no one can define a "proper democracy" (US and Sweden are different as night and day and yet both are democracies, for example). And crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government.
- kortilla 5y ago
  If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. > The absolute vast majority of people in the world live in countries with functioning governments. The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. That’s the crux of the argument here. If you live in a government where things generally work for you, this technology is threatening. If you don’t, it’s a possible path to some semblance of autonomy.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > If you’re living in a dysfunctional government 1. There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered 2. You still need to somehow convert those "assets" into, you know, actual food, and clothing, and... In a truly dysfunctional government rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. No. The underlying statement is: you're building something that doesn't work the way it's advertised. > That’s the crux of the argument here. Well, if you invent arguments, pretend your opponent said those argumetns, and then bravely fight those arguments, then surely, that's the crux. So. Back to my original statement: "Crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government." It's an objective fact that doesn't rely on your imagining of what a dysfunctional government is.
    - mthoms 5y ago
      >There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered I'm not going to wade into any of the crypto arguments here but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected with the reality that tens, perhaps hundreds[0], of millions of people live every day. Just because true democracy is a hard thing to define (per your previous comment), doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. There are lots of valid complaints about Crypto and NFT's, but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom and https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2021-annual-report https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-...
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected Again: stop inventing the arguments that are not there. The only people who are downplaying dysfunctonal governments are the crypto shills and crypto peddlers. If you actually took care and read what I wrote instead of imagining what I wrote, you'd see that never did I downplay dysfunctional governments. > doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. Literally nowhere I said this. > but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. If only there was a single person here who made this argument. Also, an oppressive government does not a dysfunctional government make. So, in the course of just a few sentences you made these claims: - that I downplayed dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments. I didn't - that I somehow argued that oppressive gvernments are not that oppressive. I didn't - that somehow authoritarian/oppressive is equal to dysfunctional. It isn't, necessarily. What I did write was: - the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments - crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse: your "assets that goverment can't steal" have to be somehow converted into food/clothing/shelter etc. which makes you a target for Rubber-hose cryptanalysis etc. Any other "assets" are worthless because your "non fungible proof of ownership on blockchain" on your house, car, and other physical items are woth exactly zero even in a functional government, much less in a dysfunctional one. So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote?
  - gizmo385 5y ago
    > If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. How so? We've already seen large scale shutdowns of crypto projects by centralized authorities like OpenSea. I highly doubt dysfunctional and authoritarian governments are going to swallow allowing their citizens to use these platforms without also ensuring that they have a measure of control over it. And if an authoritarian government wants to steal your assets, they'll just install malware on your device and take your keys, then you've lost everything. Or they'll just disappear you until you agree to hand things over.
knorker 5y ago
So the solution to bad government is no government?
dang 5y ago
I'm unfortunately late to this horrible subthread, but: Flamewar comments like this, and others you posted, are not ok on HN and will get your account banned. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

The absolute vast majority of people in the world live in countries with functioning governments. Whether or not they are "proper democracies" is really beside the point because no one can define a "proper democracy" (US and Sweden are different as night and day and yet both are democracies, for example). And crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government.

kortilla 5y ago
If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. > The absolute vast majority of people in the world live in countries with functioning governments. The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. That’s the crux of the argument here. If you live in a government where things generally work for you, this technology is threatening. If you don’t, it’s a possible path to some semblance of autonomy.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > If you’re living in a dysfunctional government 1. There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered 2. You still need to somehow convert those "assets" into, you know, actual food, and clothing, and... In a truly dysfunctional government rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > The underlying statement you are making bere is that we shouldn’t be building technology that helps people undermine their governments’ ability to control their citizens’ assets. No. The underlying statement is: you're building something that doesn't work the way it's advertised. > That’s the crux of the argument here. Well, if you invent arguments, pretend your opponent said those argumetns, and then bravely fight those arguments, then surely, that's the crux. So. Back to my original statement: "Crypto makes non-functioning governments significantly worse. Good luck proving the NFT on your house proves you're an owner in a dysfunctional government." It's an objective fact that doesn't rely on your imagining of what a dysfunctional government is.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    >There are very few such governments on earth, all things considered I'm not going to wade into any of the crypto arguments here but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected with the reality that tens, perhaps hundreds[0], of millions of people live every day. Just because true democracy is a hard thing to define (per your previous comment), doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. There are lots of valid complaints about Crypto and NFT's, but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom and https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2021-annual-report https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/economic-freedom-of-...
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > but your repeated downplaying of dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments seems entirely disconnected Again: stop inventing the arguments that are not there. The only people who are downplaying dysfunctonal governments are the crypto shills and crypto peddlers. If you actually took care and read what I wrote instead of imagining what I wrote, you'd see that never did I downplay dysfunctional governments. > doesn't make oppressive governments any less oppressive. Literally nowhere I said this. > but the argument that poor government is not that bad of a global problem "all things considered" is an absolutely terrible one. If only there was a single person here who made this argument. Also, an oppressive government does not a dysfunctional government make. So, in the course of just a few sentences you made these claims: - that I downplayed dysfunctional/authoritarian/corrupt/failing governments. I didn't - that I somehow argued that oppressive gvernments are not that oppressive. I didn't - that somehow authoritarian/oppressive is equal to dysfunctional. It isn't, necessarily. What I did write was: - the vast majority of people in this world do not live in dysfunctional governments - crypto makes the problems with dysfunctional governments worse: your "assets that goverment can't steal" have to be somehow converted into food/clothing/shelter etc. which makes you a target for Rubber-hose cryptanalysis etc. Any other "assets" are worthless because your "non fungible proof of ownership on blockchain" on your house, car, and other physical items are woth exactly zero even in a functional government, much less in a dysfunctional one. So. "All things considered", what's your opposition to what I wrote and not to what you imagine I wrote?
- gizmo385 5y ago
  > If you’re living in a dysfunctional government then at least crypto protects you from random seizures/freezing of your assets. How so? We've already seen large scale shutdowns of crypto projects by centralized authorities like OpenSea. I highly doubt dysfunctional and authoritarian governments are going to swallow allowing their citizens to use these platforms without also ensuring that they have a measure of control over it. And if an authoritarian government wants to steal your assets, they'll just install malware on your device and take your keys, then you've lost everything. Or they'll just disappear you until you agree to hand things over.

knorker 5y ago

So the solution to bad government is no government?

dang 5y ago

I'm unfortunately late to this horrible subthread, but: Flamewar comments like this, and others you posted, are not ok on HN and will get your account banned. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.