4 ms·

Death is only one outcome. Other consequences (e.g. scarred lung tissue) also exist, and don’t fall neatly in the stats that are regularly discussed.

by voisin 5y ago

danielvaughn 5y ago
Another long term (and equally hidden) consequence is the loss of critical educational development in children. We adults can toss off 2 years because it's just a drop in the bucket to us, but 2 years for a child represents a potentially staggering setback in their mental development.
- voisin 5y ago
  I agree with you, but I think it overstated the value of schooling as the only source of this development. There are so many free online education sources it is truly amazing, and yet for some reason our society’s answer to the pandemic was to have Zoom school at home which no one is happy with, rather than embrace different delivery methods that are actually engaging. Khan Academy, Duolingo, etc etc. I don’t think my kids are behind at all as a result of utilizing these technologies.
  - deegles 5y ago
    Yes, thankfully 100% of kids have access to their own computer, sufficient internet access, an environment free of stress or distractions, and the focus and internal motivation to be an successful auto-didact in the absence of adult supervision… /s
    - voisin 5y ago
      Almost all of your concerns are the same in the scenario of Zoom home school. Internal motivation is needed for success in learning no matter what delivery mechanism is utilized. Having a teacher in a box on a screen is not going to change whether a student has internal motivation. Auto-didact is not the same as having an app teach and guide through levels of learning any different than having a teacher lead it. I feel like your comment is a knee jerk, disingenuous reaction rather than honest consideration of alternatives to the false dichotomy of “in class school” and “zoom school”, but whatever floats your boat.
  - throwaway2331 5y ago
    You (and by virtue, your children) are an outlier. The most vast swathe of people in this country are not like this. Schooling is not about learning. It's a mix of daycare, social development/grooming for the workforce, and the removal of the parent's influence on the child's development, in order to serve the state's goals. Children that are motivated to learn something, will find a way to learn it.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    I did a few years of entirely self-directed home school (single parent who worked) for late middle school/early high school. My learning outcomes were fine, but I still feel like I'm dealing with the effects of not being immersed in a normal social scene during my teens: a decade and a half later.
    - voisin 5y ago
      Many people who went through the traditional school experience would assure you that they too are still dealing with the negative effects! Being in school is not a panacea of positive experiences for a lot of people.
gus_massa 5y ago
The flu has a lot of possible not deadly complications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Prognosis
parkingrift 5y ago
If we want to have this discussion, we should have it holistically. Negative mental health outcomes for children don't fall neatly into regularly discussed statistics. Poor educational outcomes don't fall neatly into regularly discussed statistics. Suicide attempts among young persons aged 12-25 have risen 30-50% during the pandemic. An order of magnitude more children aged 5-18 will attempt suicide or die from suicide than will have died from Covid-19. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm?s_cid=mm7024e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm?s_cid=mm...
lokar 5y ago
99+% of people with polio had mild symptoms
throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
Good thing omicron appears to not be effecting the lungs as much. Death is only one outcome but improvements in death rates require an underlying mechanism which can impact those other consequences too. To your point, you shouldn't look at one piece of data in isolation but you also don't have to assume the worst case either; it is possible that things are getting better. https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1211792/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1211792/v1

Death is only one outcome. Other consequences (e.g. scarred lung tissue) also exist, and don’t fall neatly in the stats that are regularly discussed.

by voisin 5y ago

Death is only one outcome. Other consequences (e.g. scarred lung tissue) also exist, and don’t fall neatly in the stats that are regularly discussed.

danielvaughn 5y ago

Another long term (and equally hidden) consequence is the loss of critical educational development in children. We adults can toss off 2 years because it's just a drop in the bucket to us, but 2 years for a child represents a potentially staggering setback in their mental development.

voisin 5y ago
I agree with you, but I think it overstated the value of schooling as the only source of this development. There are so many free online education sources it is truly amazing, and yet for some reason our society’s answer to the pandemic was to have Zoom school at home which no one is happy with, rather than embrace different delivery methods that are actually engaging. Khan Academy, Duolingo, etc etc. I don’t think my kids are behind at all as a result of utilizing these technologies.
- deegles 5y ago
  Yes, thankfully 100% of kids have access to their own computer, sufficient internet access, an environment free of stress or distractions, and the focus and internal motivation to be an successful auto-didact in the absence of adult supervision… /s
  - voisin 5y ago
    Almost all of your concerns are the same in the scenario of Zoom home school. Internal motivation is needed for success in learning no matter what delivery mechanism is utilized. Having a teacher in a box on a screen is not going to change whether a student has internal motivation. Auto-didact is not the same as having an app teach and guide through levels of learning any different than having a teacher lead it. I feel like your comment is a knee jerk, disingenuous reaction rather than honest consideration of alternatives to the false dichotomy of “in class school” and “zoom school”, but whatever floats your boat.
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  You (and by virtue, your children) are an outlier. The most vast swathe of people in this country are not like this. Schooling is not about learning. It's a mix of daycare, social development/grooming for the workforce, and the removal of the parent's influence on the child's development, in order to serve the state's goals. Children that are motivated to learn something, will find a way to learn it.
- Talanes 5y ago
  I did a few years of entirely self-directed home school (single parent who worked) for late middle school/early high school. My learning outcomes were fine, but I still feel like I'm dealing with the effects of not being immersed in a normal social scene during my teens: a decade and a half later.
  - voisin 5y ago
    Many people who went through the traditional school experience would assure you that they too are still dealing with the negative effects! Being in school is not a panacea of positive experiences for a lot of people.

gus_massa 5y ago

The flu has a lot of possible not deadly complications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Prognosis

parkingrift 5y ago

If we want to have this discussion, we should have it holistically. Negative mental health outcomes for children don't fall neatly into regularly discussed statistics. Poor educational outcomes don't fall neatly into regularly discussed statistics. Suicide attempts among young persons aged 12-25 have risen 30-50% during the pandemic. An order of magnitude more children aged 5-18 will attempt suicide or die from suicide than will have died from Covid-19. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm?s_cid=mm7024e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

lokar 5y ago

99+% of people with polio had mild symptoms

throw_nbvc1234 5y ago

Good thing omicron appears to not be effecting the lungs as much. Death is only one outcome but improvements in death rates require an underlying mechanism which can impact those other consequences too. To your point, you shouldn't look at one piece of data in isolation but you also don't have to assume the worst case either; it is possible that things are getting better. https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1211792/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1211792/v1