4 ms·

I thought it was an exclusively German thing to double-up titles like these people are - but this page makes it seem like people are doing it world-wide.

OJFord 5y ago
In the UK 'Professor' takes precedence (and isn't abbreviated? If it were it would be without the full stop (aka 'period')) - even if someone managed to become a professor at a chartered university without a doctorate it's just irrelevant at that point. Titles can be 'doubled-up' if they convey different things though, for example a knighted professor would be Professor Sir/Dame (male/female). Debrett's used to have some nice public web pages on this & similar, but it seems to have been removed or paywalled.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  That's interesting info. There's a view that I lightly hold, and I'd welcome to hear others' perspectives on it: I find myself a bit salty regarding social norms regarding honorifics. Maybe because my first instinct is that it caters to pretensions and is anti-egalitarian (in a certain sense). To me it feels similar to when people insist on using special, quirky names for various groups of animals, e.g. a "murder" of crows. Some see it as fun, but to me that fun is tainted by some persons being snobbish. I.e., they prefer a version of English whose complexity allows them to be condescending regarding it's "proper" diction. Any reasons I should feel otherwise? (This is an earnest question. I'm sure my view needs more balance.)
  - iaabtpbtpnn 5y ago
    Academia is all about prestige. You gotta let them have it, it's the main thing they care about. But you're right about names for groups of animals, called "terms of venery", were originally intended to mark a speaker as educated enough (in hunting traditions) to know the words, not for serious communication about animals.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      > Academia is all about prestige. You gotta let them have it, it's the main thing they care about. That couldn't be further from my experience, I almost always emailed 'Dr Blah', because it just seemed correct to me, but they'd sign off 'Tom' (or whatever).
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > even if someone managed to become a professor at a chartered university without a doctorate it's just irrelevant at that point There's quite a few professors without doctorates - doctorates didn't used to be the done thing until relatively recently. Typical example on HN would be Simon Peyton-Jones who is a professor but doesn't have any kind of doctorate.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    I didn't mean it to be 'if that ever happens', if that's how it sounded, just that when it does, they've surpassed what Dr conveys in a way, so it's not necessary to distinguish doctored professors from those that aren't. It probably also contributes to this that it's achieved more readily in the US, 'professor' conveys a much more senior position in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_in_the_United_Kingdom#Comparison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_in_the_United_K... (Although not at Cambridge any more, according to the section above that linked.) I recall a few having email signatures that also mentioned their equivalent US title, perhaps having had trouble being taken seriously enough in transatlantic collaborations, I don't know!
p_l 5y ago
There is a question of system - in some countries, "professor" is a separate title convened by national body, and is separate from whatever status you have at your individual teaching organization - for example, in Poland, we have "professor extraordinary", which is lower rank and convened by specific university and not valid outside, and "professor ordinary", which is presented to you by president after recommendation from scientific body - and is valid everywhere. Both of those titles require having a second-level doctorate (meaning you also did a "habilitation"), but are separate titles and when writing it down formally you're supposed to write them separately

OJFord 5y ago

In the UK 'Professor' takes precedence (and isn't abbreviated? If it were it would be without the full stop (aka 'period')) - even if someone managed to become a professor at a chartered university without a doctorate it's just irrelevant at that point. Titles can be 'doubled-up' if they convey different things though, for example a knighted professor would be Professor Sir/Dame (male/female). Debrett's used to have some nice public web pages on this & similar, but it seems to have been removed or paywalled.

CoastalCoder 5y ago
That's interesting info. There's a view that I lightly hold, and I'd welcome to hear others' perspectives on it: I find myself a bit salty regarding social norms regarding honorifics. Maybe because my first instinct is that it caters to pretensions and is anti-egalitarian (in a certain sense). To me it feels similar to when people insist on using special, quirky names for various groups of animals, e.g. a "murder" of crows. Some see it as fun, but to me that fun is tainted by some persons being snobbish. I.e., they prefer a version of English whose complexity allows them to be condescending regarding it's "proper" diction. Any reasons I should feel otherwise? (This is an earnest question. I'm sure my view needs more balance.)
- iaabtpbtpnn 5y ago
  Academia is all about prestige. You gotta let them have it, it's the main thing they care about. But you're right about names for groups of animals, called "terms of venery", were originally intended to mark a speaker as educated enough (in hunting traditions) to know the words, not for serious communication about animals.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    > Academia is all about prestige. You gotta let them have it, it's the main thing they care about. That couldn't be further from my experience, I almost always emailed 'Dr Blah', because it just seemed correct to me, but they'd sign off 'Tom' (or whatever).
chrisseaton 5y ago
> even if someone managed to become a professor at a chartered university without a doctorate it's just irrelevant at that point There's quite a few professors without doctorates - doctorates didn't used to be the done thing until relatively recently. Typical example on HN would be Simon Peyton-Jones who is a professor but doesn't have any kind of doctorate.
- OJFord 5y ago
  I didn't mean it to be 'if that ever happens', if that's how it sounded, just that when it does, they've surpassed what Dr conveys in a way, so it's not necessary to distinguish doctored professors from those that aren't. It probably also contributes to this that it's achieved more readily in the US, 'professor' conveys a much more senior position in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_in_the_United_Kingdom#Comparison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_in_the_United_K... (Although not at Cambridge any more, according to the section above that linked.) I recall a few having email signatures that also mentioned their equivalent US title, perhaps having had trouble being taken seriously enough in transatlantic collaborations, I don't know!

p_l 5y ago

There is a question of system - in some countries, "professor" is a separate title convened by national body, and is separate from whatever status you have at your individual teaching organization - for example, in Poland, we have "professor extraordinary", which is lower rank and convened by specific university and not valid outside, and "professor ordinary", which is presented to you by president after recommendation from scientific body - and is valid everywhere. Both of those titles require having a second-level doctorate (meaning you also did a "habilitation"), but are separate titles and when writing it down formally you're supposed to write them separately