9 ms·

Thank you. I don't understand the hysteria.

by fourseventy 5y ago

nojito 5y ago
You do realize that school children don't live alone correct?
- parkingrift 5y ago
  Yes they’ll go home to their vaccinated parents. What edge case are you trying to solve by remaining in a state of hysteria?
  - tzs 5y ago
    What about the ~25% of US adults that are not vaccinated? As far as I know they are at least as likely as vaccinated adults to have school age children. Even taking into account that they probably have a higher chance of homeschooling, that still leaves a lot of kids in public schools whose parents are not vaccinated. Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp?
    - zaroth 5y ago
      We’ve made the vaccine free, and widely available. If there were still people waiting weeks to get a vaccine they want to take then I can see an argument why we should all suffer serious injury (like what’s happening at this school) to try to give people more time. There is no endpoint where SARS-CoV-2 is over. The strains will keep coming and Covid is endemic. My personal experience is that each time you get COVID is more mild than the last, particularly if you are vaccinated, and this is borne out in the numbers. Surprisingly the mutations are enough that getting it repeatedly is totally possible. Even an actual sterilizing vaccine that worked in the nasal passages might not have stopping this. If not now, when? What’s your endpoint for when the extremely damaging and poverty inducing hysteria will stop?
      - tzs 5y ago
        The endpoint is when enough of the people who refuse to get vaccinated have gotten it enough times that their hospitalization rates are as low as those of vaccinated people, so that those of us who are vaccinated can get decent treatment if we get a serious injury or non-COVID illness. Omicron looks like it has a good change to get us to that point.
        native_samples 5y ago
        I hate to break it to you but most people hospitalized with COVID are already vaccinated in many health systems. That's true in the UK for instance. US data is often garbage so it's harder to say there but it's unlikely to be different. Most people are vaccinated + vaccines don't work very well = most COVID hospitalizations are vaccinated.
        tylerhou 5y ago
        > most COVID hospitalizations are vaccinated. Do you have a source for this? The math doesn’t add up (vaccinated are 10-15x less likely to be hospitalized, and around 60% of US is vaccinated, implies around 6/46 hospitalized people are vaccinated) and all the sources I could find show that unvaccinated people take up most hospitalizations and even more ICU beds, which is the limiting resource. https://www.wndu.com/2022/01/06/covid-19-hospitalizations-rise-vaccinatednon-boosted-patients/ https://www.wndu.com/2022/01/06/covid-19-hospitalizations-ri...
        native_samples 5y ago
        US data is unfortunately unusable. Hospitals routinely classify anyone they don't have data on as unvaccinated and they don't have data much of the time. Germany pulls the same trick, it was covered in a national newspaper and they didn't change it. Public health is utterly corrupt, you have to work very hard to find data that is slightly less corrupted than normal. In the UK data quality is better than normal for some reason, perhaps due to the nationalized healthcare system making it easier to set consistent standards. And there the majority of COVID patients in hospital are vaccinated according to the ICNARC audits. It's not a big majority but it's there, and this is not confounder/game-playing free data either. They keep classifying people as unvaccinated for quite some time after their first shot for example, which is problematic because there's some evidence people are more likely to get infected immediately after their first dose. But that gets added to the unvaccinated side of the ledger. There are other problems e.g. people have to go to hospital to be hospitalized, but they tell vaccinated people they're protected from hospitalization, then declare victory when those people don't turn up. Given how marginal many cases are (they may or may not really need to be there but you can't know what would have happened in the alternative case), this is a form of circular reasoning. Nonetheless it'd be weird if the USA and Germany were radically different to the UK in this regard.
    - parkingrift 5y ago
      >Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp? That's a harsh way of putting it, but yes. Fundamentally, the argument seems to be that kids will bring it home to vulnerable populations. Those vulnerable populations have had a year to get vaccinated and boosted. It is difficult to live in NYC without being vaccinated. I don't think it is wise or prudent to make policy decisions to protect some extreme minority of people who outright refuse preventative medical treatment.
    - pb7 5y ago
      In the nicest way possible, fuck those people. They’ve had plenty of time to get vaccinated. It’s not our responsibility to tip toe around irresponsibility.
      - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
        Some people cannot get vaccinated. A friend of mine can't because she's immunocompromised. Their family has done their part by staying home and finding new activities for their kids to accomplish in the house (which, fortunately for them, is pretty easy because they're huge nerds and aren't hurting for money). They're lucky because her husband is a self-employed remote contractor and she is a remote special education teacher.
        pb7 5y ago
        Immunocompromised people (as a group, many of whom can get vaccinated anyway) generously make up ~3% of the total population. What is the other 22% of the aforementioned 25% doing? There’s no need to point to exceptions when there is a much bigger unexplained group, it just gives them undue plausible deniability.
        MisterBastahrd 5y ago
        The remainder is split into two groups: those who are politically aligned in a way that they will thump their chests and proclaim their superiority over COVID like it's some sort of candidate they can defeat, and those who have an anxiety issue over doctors and needles or are afraid that perhaps the ones who are anti-vaxx might be right due to some personal educational deficiency.
      - kerneloftruth 5y ago
        They're basically saying the same words in response. I think those who wish to be vaccinated have already done so. Given how the reality of it has unfolded, it's fascinating (horrifying) to see the continued hysteria: one _must_ take the vaccine invented less than 2 years ago, that has been available for only a year, whose makers are immune from litigation re: unforeseen effects, is far less effective than it was first promised to be, and where even triple-dosed people catch Covid, regardless. It's super bizarre to see the desire/demand to vaccinate children with the brand-new drug...as young as 5!?! As the virus evolves, our experience with it increases, the reality of the vaccines becoming clearer (they help, but not as much as we hoped for), and therapeutics become more available -- mandates that require vaccines seem less valid. It's appropriate to reconsider them, like _all emergency powers_. I'm actually hoping the SCOTUS knocks down the OSHA mandates. It's bad precedent to grant an agency such powers via fiat (executive order); and, what's being mandated is not at all what we thought it was.
    - khazhoux 5y ago
      > What about the ~25% of US adults that are not vaccinated? Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp? How is this even a question? Of course they've had enough time, and they've made their choice to face COVID with their natural immune system. I'm talking here about people who still purposely refuse the vaccine, and I'm not talking about people who are unable to get it for medical reason. As a society, we are not obligated to take measures to prevent COVID from reaching people who refuse the main act that will truly protect themselves.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
isoskeles 5y ago
The hysteria is a function of how much people hated Trump. Orange man bad => orange man responsible for covid => I must act like covid is the worst, most dangerous pandemic of all time as a signal about how much I hated when Cheetoh Mussolini was president. It’s quite absurd. I can understand hating Trump, but it’s actually time to move on. We’re going to be captive to this crap until people fully realize their reaction to the pandemic is mostly a product of their political opinion in 2020 rather than scientific fact.

Thank you. I don't understand the hysteria.

nojito 5y ago

You do realize that school children don't live alone correct?

parkingrift 5y ago
Yes they’ll go home to their vaccinated parents. What edge case are you trying to solve by remaining in a state of hysteria?
- tzs 5y ago
  What about the ~25% of US adults that are not vaccinated? As far as I know they are at least as likely as vaccinated adults to have school age children. Even taking into account that they probably have a higher chance of homeschooling, that still leaves a lot of kids in public schools whose parents are not vaccinated. Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp?
  - zaroth 5y ago
    We’ve made the vaccine free, and widely available. If there were still people waiting weeks to get a vaccine they want to take then I can see an argument why we should all suffer serious injury (like what’s happening at this school) to try to give people more time. There is no endpoint where SARS-CoV-2 is over. The strains will keep coming and Covid is endemic. My personal experience is that each time you get COVID is more mild than the last, particularly if you are vaccinated, and this is borne out in the numbers. Surprisingly the mutations are enough that getting it repeatedly is totally possible. Even an actual sterilizing vaccine that worked in the nasal passages might not have stopping this. If not now, when? What’s your endpoint for when the extremely damaging and poverty inducing hysteria will stop?
    - tzs 5y ago
      The endpoint is when enough of the people who refuse to get vaccinated have gotten it enough times that their hospitalization rates are as low as those of vaccinated people, so that those of us who are vaccinated can get decent treatment if we get a serious injury or non-COVID illness. Omicron looks like it has a good change to get us to that point.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        I hate to break it to you but most people hospitalized with COVID are already vaccinated in many health systems. That's true in the UK for instance. US data is often garbage so it's harder to say there but it's unlikely to be different. Most people are vaccinated + vaccines don't work very well = most COVID hospitalizations are vaccinated.
        tylerhou 5y ago
        > most COVID hospitalizations are vaccinated. Do you have a source for this? The math doesn’t add up (vaccinated are 10-15x less likely to be hospitalized, and around 60% of US is vaccinated, implies around 6/46 hospitalized people are vaccinated) and all the sources I could find show that unvaccinated people take up most hospitalizations and even more ICU beds, which is the limiting resource. https://www.wndu.com/2022/01/06/covid-19-hospitalizations-rise-vaccinatednon-boosted-patients/ https://www.wndu.com/2022/01/06/covid-19-hospitalizations-ri...
        native_samples 5y ago
        US data is unfortunately unusable. Hospitals routinely classify anyone they don't have data on as unvaccinated and they don't have data much of the time. Germany pulls the same trick, it was covered in a national newspaper and they didn't change it. Public health is utterly corrupt, you have to work very hard to find data that is slightly less corrupted than normal. In the UK data quality is better than normal for some reason, perhaps due to the nationalized healthcare system making it easier to set consistent standards. And there the majority of COVID patients in hospital are vaccinated according to the ICNARC audits. It's not a big majority but it's there, and this is not confounder/game-playing free data either. They keep classifying people as unvaccinated for quite some time after their first shot for example, which is problematic because there's some evidence people are more likely to get infected immediately after their first dose. But that gets added to the unvaccinated side of the ledger. There are other problems e.g. people have to go to hospital to be hospitalized, but they tell vaccinated people they're protected from hospitalization, then declare victory when those people don't turn up. Given how marginal many cases are (they may or may not really need to be there but you can't know what would have happened in the alternative case), this is a form of circular reasoning. Nonetheless it'd be weird if the USA and Germany were radically different to the UK in this regard.
  - parkingrift 5y ago
    >Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp? That's a harsh way of putting it, but yes. Fundamentally, the argument seems to be that kids will bring it home to vulnerable populations. Those vulnerable populations have had a year to get vaccinated and boosted. It is difficult to live in NYC without being vaccinated. I don't think it is wise or prudent to make policy decisions to protect some extreme minority of people who outright refuse preventative medical treatment.
  - pb7 5y ago
    In the nicest way possible, fuck those people. They’ve had plenty of time to get vaccinated. It’s not our responsibility to tip toe around irresponsibility.
    - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
      Some people cannot get vaccinated. A friend of mine can't because she's immunocompromised. Their family has done their part by staying home and finding new activities for their kids to accomplish in the house (which, fortunately for them, is pretty easy because they're huge nerds and aren't hurting for money). They're lucky because her husband is a self-employed remote contractor and she is a remote special education teacher.
      - pb7 5y ago
        Immunocompromised people (as a group, many of whom can get vaccinated anyway) generously make up ~3% of the total population. What is the other 22% of the aforementioned 25% doing? There’s no need to point to exceptions when there is a much bigger unexplained group, it just gives them undue plausible deniability.
        MisterBastahrd 5y ago
        The remainder is split into two groups: those who are politically aligned in a way that they will thump their chests and proclaim their superiority over COVID like it's some sort of candidate they can defeat, and those who have an anxiety issue over doctors and needles or are afraid that perhaps the ones who are anti-vaxx might be right due to some personal educational deficiency.
    - kerneloftruth 5y ago
      They're basically saying the same words in response. I think those who wish to be vaccinated have already done so. Given how the reality of it has unfolded, it's fascinating (horrifying) to see the continued hysteria: one _must_ take the vaccine invented less than 2 years ago, that has been available for only a year, whose makers are immune from litigation re: unforeseen effects, is far less effective than it was first promised to be, and where even triple-dosed people catch Covid, regardless. It's super bizarre to see the desire/demand to vaccinate children with the brand-new drug...as young as 5!?! As the virus evolves, our experience with it increases, the reality of the vaccines becoming clearer (they help, but not as much as we hoped for), and therapeutics become more available -- mandates that require vaccines seem less valid. It's appropriate to reconsider them, like _all emergency powers_. I'm actually hoping the SCOTUS knocks down the OSHA mandates. It's bad precedent to grant an agency such powers via fiat (executive order); and, what's being mandated is not at all what we thought it was.
  - khazhoux 5y ago
    > What about the ~25% of US adults that are not vaccinated? Are you in the "they've had enough time to get vaccinated, so if they haven't done so yet let them get COVID" camp? How is this even a question? Of course they've had enough time, and they've made their choice to face COVID with their natural immune system. I'm talking here about people who still purposely refuse the vaccine, and I'm not talking about people who are unable to get it for medical reason. As a society, we are not obligated to take measures to prevent COVID from reaching people who refuse the main act that will truly protect themselves.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

isoskeles 5y ago

The hysteria is a function of how much people hated Trump. Orange man bad => orange man responsible for covid => I must act like covid is the worst, most dangerous pandemic of all time as a signal about how much I hated when Cheetoh Mussolini was president. It’s quite absurd. I can understand hating Trump, but it’s actually time to move on. We’re going to be captive to this crap until people fully realize their reaction to the pandemic is mostly a product of their political opinion in 2020 rather than scientific fact.