5 ms·

GNU Taler – Payment system for privacy-friendly, fast, easy online transactions

101 points by bratwurst3000 5y ago

p2hari 5y ago
Wow, this looks awesome. As somebody who was considering an alternate way to build new payment systems this gives a good start. If my understanding is correct KUDOS(the currency of taler) is pegged at 1 to 1 with all the currencies? Is it based on the real forex markets that calculates how much KUDOS I get? But if not, I can always get conversion benefits in this system. Maybe have to read more.
- zinekeller 5y ago
  You misunderstand. KUDOS is simply a "toy" currency, and this is not a cryptocurrency. It's basically solving the MasterCard-Visa duopoly problem, and it doesn't aim to replace existing currencies (although it doesn't also preclude from adopting a new one though).
  - p2hari 5y ago
    Yes, thanks. I know it is not cryptocurrency. I know it was just a currency to be used inside the taler system. But my thinking was about the exchange. I, as a buyer, will upload some EUR to my wallet, the exchange then converts it into KUDOS, and I use that to pay the merchant. Now if the merchant has set up the product prices in USD and accepts USD, somehow the KUDOS will need to match the USD. right? So my question was related to that. If that is the case, I see some ways of abusing the system. Maybe set up both merchant and buyer accounts and convert EUR to USD at rates better than the market..
    - bratwurst3000 5y ago
      I think the kudos is only the „container“ for the value in dollars you transferred to it. So one kudos could be one dollar or 100 dollar. Its written down in the kudos. Did I get that right?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        That's my understanding of it. Kudos is like a gift card.
      - p2hari 5y ago
        That is what the document says, but it does not detail in how it is actually done. If I transfer 100 USD, then it should somehow fluctuate to market conditions. So, the question is does GNU taler also vary the kudos to match FOrex rates? If not then how is currency exchange happening in this system.
        summm 5y ago
        There is no currency exchange in this system. You just setup the system for each existing currency separately. The kudos is really just for development and demonstrating the system.
        bratwurst3000 5y ago
        No as someone stated its a gift card. A voucher that your bank is giving someone N dollars or whatever. So if the value of dollar decreases the value of your gift card is also decreasing but it is still the same amount of dollars but with less purchasing power Edit: its an anonymous check
      - bennnnn 5y ago
        No, Kudos is not a real currency. It was an example for the explanation. Basically it seems the goal here is a sender-agnostic (or currency-agnostic I cant really tell which comes first) payment system which is pretty awesome
    - summm 5y ago
      No, in a real deployment, the denomination will not be KUDOS, but USD, or EUR. You just pay 100 EUR to the bank, the bank issues you, for example, 100 digital coins of 1 EUR each. And you pay with these coins (simplified, there are different sized coins and a mechanism for giving change) It's more like paypal or visa than like bitcoin in this regard.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> Customers can stay anonymous, but merchants can not hide their income through payments with GNU Taler. This helps to avoid tax evasion and money laundering. That seems like a very peculiar definition of privacy.
- darthrupert 5y ago
  Privacy doesn't imply freedom from taxation or freedom to do crime.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Maybe you are lucky to live in a country where you agree with your government's definition of what a crime, but in certain parts of the world they call "crime" what you would call "democracy". To add to this, I think it might be better if the protocol was private by default but allow the sender to choose the level of disclosure and the recipient to publish (as part of the address?) what levels are required (so a sender can’t submit a payment whose disclosure level doesn’t match the policy set by the recipient - the transaction just wouldn’t happen as the miners would enforce this and reject the TX). That would allow the protocol to be flexible to accommodate different use-cases depending on the jurisdiction the payment falls under and allow recipients to be compliant (as the protocol implicitly rejects transactions that don’t match the recipient’s chosen policy). The same protocol can thus be used across many different jurisdictions and anti-money-laundering regulations.
    - throwaway2048 5y ago
      I don't think many people consider tax evasion "democracy"
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      money laundering is a crime everywhere.
      - chucktingle 5y ago
gefhfffh 5y ago
I really like the concept and wish it was reality. Sadly, while the project even seems attractive to states, I think they killed it before it could become reality by choosing a GPL licence. Probably nobody will touch it... PS: it's not like I have a problem with it, but mostly it's reality PPS: move to GitHub or alternatives, please - accessibility right now doesn't seem great
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  >I really like the concept and wish it was reality. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Does the project not actually exist? It seems like it is real and has been under development for some years now....
  - gefhfffh 5y ago
    It exists as a demo (and on a student campus for food), but it's not like you can get Taler from your bank and pay at the supermarket or a random shop in the internet
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      That just sounds like a lack of real world implementation to me. Assuming it works for what the school needs, it can probably be adapted to other systems I would think. Just like if you or I wrote a project, is it not real until someone else implements it? Banks are notoriously slow on the uptake of tech projects, it might take some internal pushing from people who care to adopt a FOSS solution. Most business I've run into prefer proprietary projects because its easier to just throw money at something, although they could throw money at their internal team to implement FOSS. Unsure if it would be more expensive in this case, I'm not very familiar with fintech
      - captn3m0 5y ago
        It’s not just technical, but regulatory challenges that come with issuing a new kind of prepaid-instrument (it is akin to a Casino Chip that can be accepted by _any person with a bank account_). Central Banks are not known for speedily approving such proposals.
0xCMP 5y ago
iiuc this is a very similar design to how Mullvad accepts payments[0] except that they have a token used to pay multiple merchants. [0]: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/#numbered https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/#numbered edit: add mullvad link. correct typo.
- summm 5y ago
  Interesting, you got a link how they do it?
  - 0xCMP 5y ago
    I would look at how they basically maintain minimal tables of payments which can be used to pay for service. Taler is more complex to handle being a 3rd party doing this, but Mullvad seems to do a similar idea of separating payment from the account itself to allow for anonymous payment.
kybernetyk 5y ago
Geee 5y ago
GNU taler is based on Chaum's e-cash. There are certain issues with chaumian mints. Obvious one is that the mint owner can run with the money, and thus the system requires trust. Compared to a centralized payment system such as Paypal, the only benefit is anonymity of transactions. There has been some development of federated chaumian mints, such that the required trust is split over multiple parties. This is possible with Bitcoin, and it would make sense as a scalability and privacy solution. See: https://fedimint.org https://fedimint.org
merricksb 5y ago
Major discussion 10 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26261314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26261314 (346 points/111 comments) Also: 5 months ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28301172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28301172 (47 points/9 comments) 4 years ago – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274110 (479 points/149 comments) 6 years ago – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11840453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11840453 (276 points/192 comments)
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
This is cool. I think as crypto pushes the boundary of ideas of what's possible, there will be more feedback loops where people will then realize (and build) those similar ideas in a better way but _without_ crypto or full decentralization.
amai 5y ago
The origin of the word „dollar“ is actually „Taler“.

101 points by bratwurst3000 5y ago

Wow, this looks awesome. As somebody who was considering an alternate way to build new payment systems this gives a good start. If my understanding is correct KUDOS(the currency of taler) is pegged at 1 to 1 with all the currencies? Is it based on the real forex markets that calculates how much KUDOS I get? But if not, I can always get conversion benefits in this system. Maybe have to read more.

zinekeller 5y ago
You misunderstand. KUDOS is simply a "toy" currency, and this is not a cryptocurrency. It's basically solving the MasterCard-Visa duopoly problem, and it doesn't aim to replace existing currencies (although it doesn't also preclude from adopting a new one though).
- p2hari 5y ago
  Yes, thanks. I know it is not cryptocurrency. I know it was just a currency to be used inside the taler system. But my thinking was about the exchange. I, as a buyer, will upload some EUR to my wallet, the exchange then converts it into KUDOS, and I use that to pay the merchant. Now if the merchant has set up the product prices in USD and accepts USD, somehow the KUDOS will need to match the USD. right? So my question was related to that. If that is the case, I see some ways of abusing the system. Maybe set up both merchant and buyer accounts and convert EUR to USD at rates better than the market..
  - bratwurst3000 5y ago
    I think the kudos is only the „container“ for the value in dollars you transferred to it. So one kudos could be one dollar or 100 dollar. Its written down in the kudos. Did I get that right?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      That's my understanding of it. Kudos is like a gift card.
    - p2hari 5y ago
      That is what the document says, but it does not detail in how it is actually done. If I transfer 100 USD, then it should somehow fluctuate to market conditions. So, the question is does GNU taler also vary the kudos to match FOrex rates? If not then how is currency exchange happening in this system.
      - summm 5y ago
        There is no currency exchange in this system. You just setup the system for each existing currency separately. The kudos is really just for development and demonstrating the system.
      - bratwurst3000 5y ago
        No as someone stated its a gift card. A voucher that your bank is giving someone N dollars or whatever. So if the value of dollar decreases the value of your gift card is also decreasing but it is still the same amount of dollars but with less purchasing power Edit: its an anonymous check
    - bennnnn 5y ago
      No, Kudos is not a real currency. It was an example for the explanation. Basically it seems the goal here is a sender-agnostic (or currency-agnostic I cant really tell which comes first) payment system which is pretty awesome
  - summm 5y ago
    No, in a real deployment, the denomination will not be KUDOS, but USD, or EUR. You just pay 100 EUR to the bank, the bank issues you, for example, 100 digital coins of 1 EUR each. And you pay with these coins (simplified, there are different sized coins and a mechanism for giving change) It's more like paypal or visa than like bitcoin in this regard.

Nextgrid 5y ago

> Customers can stay anonymous, but merchants can not hide their income through payments with GNU Taler. This helps to avoid tax evasion and money laundering. That seems like a very peculiar definition of privacy.

darthrupert 5y ago
Privacy doesn't imply freedom from taxation or freedom to do crime.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Maybe you are lucky to live in a country where you agree with your government's definition of what a crime, but in certain parts of the world they call "crime" what you would call "democracy". To add to this, I think it might be better if the protocol was private by default but allow the sender to choose the level of disclosure and the recipient to publish (as part of the address?) what levels are required (so a sender can’t submit a payment whose disclosure level doesn’t match the policy set by the recipient - the transaction just wouldn’t happen as the miners would enforce this and reject the TX). That would allow the protocol to be flexible to accommodate different use-cases depending on the jurisdiction the payment falls under and allow recipients to be compliant (as the protocol implicitly rejects transactions that don’t match the recipient’s chosen policy). The same protocol can thus be used across many different jurisdictions and anti-money-laundering regulations.
  - throwaway2048 5y ago
    I don't think many people consider tax evasion "democracy"
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    money laundering is a crime everywhere.
    - chucktingle 5y ago

gefhfffh 5y ago

I really like the concept and wish it was reality. Sadly, while the project even seems attractive to states, I think they killed it before it could become reality by choosing a GPL licence. Probably nobody will touch it... PS: it's not like I have a problem with it, but mostly it's reality PPS: move to GitHub or alternatives, please - accessibility right now doesn't seem great

netizen-936824 5y ago
>I really like the concept and wish it was reality. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Does the project not actually exist? It seems like it is real and has been under development for some years now....
- gefhfffh 5y ago
  It exists as a demo (and on a student campus for food), but it's not like you can get Taler from your bank and pay at the supermarket or a random shop in the internet
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    That just sounds like a lack of real world implementation to me. Assuming it works for what the school needs, it can probably be adapted to other systems I would think. Just like if you or I wrote a project, is it not real until someone else implements it? Banks are notoriously slow on the uptake of tech projects, it might take some internal pushing from people who care to adopt a FOSS solution. Most business I've run into prefer proprietary projects because its easier to just throw money at something, although they could throw money at their internal team to implement FOSS. Unsure if it would be more expensive in this case, I'm not very familiar with fintech
    - captn3m0 5y ago
      It’s not just technical, but regulatory challenges that come with issuing a new kind of prepaid-instrument (it is akin to a Casino Chip that can be accepted by _any person with a bank account_). Central Banks are not known for speedily approving such proposals.

0xCMP 5y ago

iiuc this is a very similar design to how Mullvad accepts payments[0] except that they have a token used to pay multiple merchants. [0]: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/#numbered https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/#numbered edit: add mullvad link. correct typo.

summm 5y ago
Interesting, you got a link how they do it?
- 0xCMP 5y ago
  I would look at how they basically maintain minimal tables of payments which can be used to pay for service. Taler is more complex to handle being a 3rd party doing this, but Mullvad seems to do a similar idea of separating payment from the account itself to allow for anonymous payment.

kybernetyk 5y ago

Geee 5y ago

GNU taler is based on Chaum's e-cash. There are certain issues with chaumian mints. Obvious one is that the mint owner can run with the money, and thus the system requires trust. Compared to a centralized payment system such as Paypal, the only benefit is anonymity of transactions. There has been some development of federated chaumian mints, such that the required trust is split over multiple parties. This is possible with Bitcoin, and it would make sense as a scalability and privacy solution. See: https://fedimint.org https://fedimint.org

merricksb 5y ago

Major discussion 10 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26261314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26261314 (346 points/111 comments) Also: 5 months ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28301172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28301172 (47 points/9 comments) 4 years ago – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274110 (479 points/149 comments) 6 years ago – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11840453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11840453 (276 points/192 comments)

Ozzie_osman 5y ago

This is cool. I think as crypto pushes the boundary of ideas of what's possible, there will be more feedback loops where people will then realize (and build) those similar ideas in a better way but _without_ crypto or full decentralization.

amai 5y ago

The origin of the word „dollar“ is actually „Taler“.