13 ms·

I remember waking up to go to school every morning at 6:45 and taking the bus every day at 7:05 when I was in high school in France. Most months the sun hadn't

by sersi 5y ago

I remember waking up to go to school every morning at 6:45 and taking the bus every day at 7:05 when I was in high school in France. Most months the sun hadn't even risen yet. It was punishing, and I definitely was sleep deprived by the end of the week. Because of the schedule, my parents had me go to sleep around 9pm but I had a hard time sleeping then and tended to not fall asleep before midnight/1 am. I'd either lie in bed thinking, or use my radio alarm clock light to read books. Honestly, I think I would have been healthier and enjoyed school a lot more if school had started 90 minutes later. That's definitely a criteria I'd look out for when choosing a school for my son.

White_Wolf 5y ago
1AM? you are tough mate. I was in bed by 10PM-10:30 in high school, broken in every sense of the word. If I was lucky I could actually pull off a 11PM but it was rare.
- sersi 5y ago
  Oh I was tired just wasn't able to sleep... Once I left high school and started university, I did pretty well on a schedule of sleeping at 1/2 am and waking up around 9:30 before going to class (unfortunately skipping any classes that were scheduled from 8 to 10).
boringds 5y ago
In Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker there is a fascinating chapter about how teenagers are biologically programmed to sleep later and wake up later as well. He then explains that basically sending teenagers to school early in the morning is terrible health-wise and prevents optimal brain development. Anecdata of course but I remember much like you being extremely sleepy at school all day and sleeping a lot on weekends.
- AuthorizedCust 5y ago
  I would hesitate at using that book. Riddled with errors or non-factual stuff. Been discussed previously here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
  - maximus-decimus 5y ago
    I bought the latest version and he seems to have addressed the problems brought up there. All books are gonna have errors especially in their first version. Doesn't mean it's better to just never read anything about any subject.
    - sergers 5y ago
      I bought the original. It's a good read but yea the guy wrote in depth into false claims , and only changed what he wrote based on pushback in a new book. I chalk it up to more than just errors. His new book "new science..." This "science" was available at time of his original publishing of first version
    - lozenge 5y ago
      It's not really a case of typos or the odd error, more like a disinterest in the truth and a preference to just write a narrative and sprinkling fake citations to make it look scientific. Just the first person to really review it, found 15 major errors and inaccuracies in the first chapter, and gave up due to the time it would take to review the rest of the book. On top of that, the author doubles down when called out, and doesn't want to discuss any of the actual details or admit any errors or misrepresentations, like cutting data out of a graph when it would give readers a different conclusion than the text. Some of the errors are positively dangerous, like claiming that the recommended number of hours of sleep is 8, instead of the true figure of 7-9. "I spent more than 130 hours over the last 2 months researching and writing this essay (~5 hours to write the outline; ~60 hours to get to the first draft; ~65 hours to edit and fact-check), which constituted essentially all of my surplus free time over this time period. Continuing at the same pace, it would take me more than 3,000 hours to check the entire book. 3,000 hours is the equivalent of 75 weeks or 1.4 years of full-time work."
MattPalmer1086 5y ago
We rejected several schools last year for exactly this reason. One in particular made a huge virtue out of being super early. That one we didn't even bother assessing on other dimensions.
- 8bitsrule 5y ago
  > a huge virtue out of being super early 'Early to bed, early to rise,' said Ben Franklin. Great advice for those whose chronotypes match this attitude. Not for the other 40% though ... for them, this 'virtue' is an inescapable prison. "In morning people, sleep drive and chronotype tend to be aligned. Their internal clocks are pretty well synchronized with their over-all energy levels. For night owls, however, things get complicated. When the sun comes up, the light resets their circadian clocks, telling them to wake up. But, because of their chronotypes, they don’t have much energy and they want to go back to sleep." - [https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/moral-mornings https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/moral-morn...]
GordonS 5y ago
I was the same as a kid - I really struggled with the early mornings, and could never sleep before midnight. Come the weekend, and I was so tired I'd sleep until midday. When I first started at high school, I was a great student, for example winning multiple prizes over the first 18 months. But the tiredness really took a toll, and for most of the rest of school I was a half zombie - I still did well at school, but I'm sure I could have achieved so much more if I wasn't so incredibly tired all the time, and it for sure took a toll on my social life too. Us two were maybe more extreme examples, but it seems to be a common problem. I don't know what the solution is though?
- ianai 5y ago
  Just start school later in the day. That's the solution. The real problem is that the rest of society wants to start at set times. People don't want their kids "home alone" after they've left for work or before they come home from work. All of society just isn't geared toward flexibility for its constituents.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - apple4ever 5y ago
    Agreed. I know a lot of it is busing - they have to bus elementary kids then the MS/HS kids. But it should be switched at least. Young kids get up early, older kids don't. Regardless, school in general should start later, and so should businesses. If I'm left to my own devices without external factors, I will go to sleep at 2am and get up at 10am. And that's what I did during the lockdowns. But otherwise, its punishing when I have to get up at 7am to be at work at 8 or 9.
- blindmute 5y ago
  If you were so tired, why couldn't you just sleep earlier at night? If I'm remembering my own teen years correctly, most of us chose to stay up late not because we couldn't sleep, but because we just wanted to, sleep be damned. Everyone complains about having to get up early, but the sleep deprivation is self inflicted. If you're tired, you can sleep at 9pm.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
johnchristopher 5y ago
> I remember waking up to go to school every morning at 6:45 and taking the bus every day at 7:05 when I was in high school in France. I see you too practiced the fine arts of the tight schedule between snoozing the alarm clock and catching the bus :].
iLoveOncall 5y ago
School in France starts at 8 or later, so not living an hour away from school would have helped... I was waking up at 7:30.

by sersi 5y ago

White_Wolf 5y ago

1AM? you are tough mate. I was in bed by 10PM-10:30 in high school, broken in every sense of the word. If I was lucky I could actually pull off a 11PM but it was rare.

sersi 5y ago
Oh I was tired just wasn't able to sleep... Once I left high school and started university, I did pretty well on a schedule of sleeping at 1/2 am and waking up around 9:30 before going to class (unfortunately skipping any classes that were scheduled from 8 to 10).

boringds 5y ago

In Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker there is a fascinating chapter about how teenagers are biologically programmed to sleep later and wake up later as well. He then explains that basically sending teenagers to school early in the morning is terrible health-wise and prevents optimal brain development. Anecdata of course but I remember much like you being extremely sleepy at school all day and sleeping a lot on weekends.

AuthorizedCust 5y ago
I would hesitate at using that book. Riddled with errors or non-factual stuff. Been discussed previously here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  I bought the latest version and he seems to have addressed the problems brought up there. All books are gonna have errors especially in their first version. Doesn't mean it's better to just never read anything about any subject.
  - sergers 5y ago
    I bought the original. It's a good read but yea the guy wrote in depth into false claims , and only changed what he wrote based on pushback in a new book. I chalk it up to more than just errors. His new book "new science..." This "science" was available at time of his original publishing of first version
  - lozenge 5y ago
    It's not really a case of typos or the odd error, more like a disinterest in the truth and a preference to just write a narrative and sprinkling fake citations to make it look scientific. Just the first person to really review it, found 15 major errors and inaccuracies in the first chapter, and gave up due to the time it would take to review the rest of the book. On top of that, the author doubles down when called out, and doesn't want to discuss any of the actual details or admit any errors or misrepresentations, like cutting data out of a graph when it would give readers a different conclusion than the text. Some of the errors are positively dangerous, like claiming that the recommended number of hours of sleep is 8, instead of the true figure of 7-9. "I spent more than 130 hours over the last 2 months researching and writing this essay (~5 hours to write the outline; ~60 hours to get to the first draft; ~65 hours to edit and fact-check), which constituted essentially all of my surplus free time over this time period. Continuing at the same pace, it would take me more than 3,000 hours to check the entire book. 3,000 hours is the equivalent of 75 weeks or 1.4 years of full-time work."

MattPalmer1086 5y ago

We rejected several schools last year for exactly this reason. One in particular made a huge virtue out of being super early. That one we didn't even bother assessing on other dimensions.

8bitsrule 5y ago
> a huge virtue out of being super early 'Early to bed, early to rise,' said Ben Franklin. Great advice for those whose chronotypes match this attitude. Not for the other 40% though ... for them, this 'virtue' is an inescapable prison. "In morning people, sleep drive and chronotype tend to be aligned. Their internal clocks are pretty well synchronized with their over-all energy levels. For night owls, however, things get complicated. When the sun comes up, the light resets their circadian clocks, telling them to wake up. But, because of their chronotypes, they don’t have much energy and they want to go back to sleep." - [https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/moral-mornings https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/moral-morn...]

GordonS 5y ago

I was the same as a kid - I really struggled with the early mornings, and could never sleep before midnight. Come the weekend, and I was so tired I'd sleep until midday. When I first started at high school, I was a great student, for example winning multiple prizes over the first 18 months. But the tiredness really took a toll, and for most of the rest of school I was a half zombie - I still did well at school, but I'm sure I could have achieved so much more if I wasn't so incredibly tired all the time, and it for sure took a toll on my social life too. Us two were maybe more extreme examples, but it seems to be a common problem. I don't know what the solution is though?

ianai 5y ago
Just start school later in the day. That's the solution. The real problem is that the rest of society wants to start at set times. People don't want their kids "home alone" after they've left for work or before they come home from work. All of society just isn't geared toward flexibility for its constituents.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- apple4ever 5y ago
  Agreed. I know a lot of it is busing - they have to bus elementary kids then the MS/HS kids. But it should be switched at least. Young kids get up early, older kids don't. Regardless, school in general should start later, and so should businesses. If I'm left to my own devices without external factors, I will go to sleep at 2am and get up at 10am. And that's what I did during the lockdowns. But otherwise, its punishing when I have to get up at 7am to be at work at 8 or 9.
blindmute 5y ago
If you were so tired, why couldn't you just sleep earlier at night? If I'm remembering my own teen years correctly, most of us chose to stay up late not because we couldn't sleep, but because we just wanted to, sleep be damned. Everyone complains about having to get up early, but the sleep deprivation is self inflicted. If you're tired, you can sleep at 9pm.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

johnchristopher 5y ago

> I remember waking up to go to school every morning at 6:45 and taking the bus every day at 7:05 when I was in high school in France. I see you too practiced the fine arts of the tight schedule between snoozing the alarm clock and catching the bus :].

iLoveOncall 5y ago

School in France starts at 8 or later, so not living an hour away from school would have helped... I was waking up at 7:30.