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What you are leaving out is that this system was the reaction to a massive fraud before it. The same politicians who were screaming for a thougher stance on fr

What you are leaving out is that this system was the reaction to a massive fraud before it. The same politicians who were screaming for a thougher stance on fraud are the same one now asking why there was such a though stance (Omtzigt being a good example). The fraud encompassed people from mainly eastern European countries (mainly Bulgaria, hence it is known as the "Bulgarenfraude" [1]) coming to the Netherlands, claiming (and getting) all kinds of benefits and then returning to their home country. By the time the tax service figured out they weren't entitled to the money they couldn't reclaim it because they were gone. It was basically a free money handout for them. Also a good deal of the people who got caught bitten by the thougher stance did actually commit fraud. At least the shady agencies which handled the benefits for these people (which those people themselves chose). Examples of these shady practices included things such as artifically inflating costs by making up expenses. EDIT: It is also interesting to note that the husband of the lawyer who got this ball rolling was the owner of such an agency. Numerious structural inconsistencies were found when this agency was investigated (structural falsification of hourly stats and so on)[2]. Basically what they did was telling people: "Does your kid sometimes stay at a familiy member? Well we think we found a way so you can get money for that" and then they handled the paper work and got a comission. That might have been the letter of the law but was definitly not the spirit of the law. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarenfraude https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarenfraude [2] https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=3be75800-fbb7-4ec0-ba89-b6b719cda608&title=Bijlage%20bij%20vraag%2013%3A%20Casus%20Hawaii%20.pdf https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=3be75800-fb...

GekkePrutser 5y ago
I didn't really leave it out, I just don't think it's relevant. I don't think knowingly persecuting citizens (in bulk!) for something they did not commit is something that ever should happen. The tax service literally flagged people based on nothing and then pushed on without listening to any arguments from their side. This is not "tougher on fraud". This is just pure bullying to inflate "frauds caught" numbers, helped by the "guilty unless proven innocent" policy which is really unfair. Many of these innocent people are still waiting for compensation! Of course there were some that did commit fraud. And the current privatised system is really prone to abuse anyway. With the old state-run system every healthcare was given 'in kind' and there was no need for financial reimbursements. They should take money loop out of the system again. Then there will be no more scope for abuse in this way. All these dodgy agencies only cropped up to take advantage of the privatised system. And in many cases parents were not aware of their dodgy nature - in any case those agencies should be the ones being prosecuted, not the parents. But no real systemic changes were made. An apology to those affected, some promises for compensation they're still waiting on. And things are back as they always were.
- jsiepkes 5y ago
  > But no real systemic changes were made. > [...] > They should take money loop out of the system again. Apparantly you missed the fact that the whole child day-care compensation system is going to be changed [1]. Parents will no longer receive money but the money will go directly to the day-care (and eventually 100% of the costs will be covered). > This is just pure bullying to inflate "frauds caught" numbers I can't find any source that says so (and you don't provide a source). The only reason mentioned anywhere was the tax service thought the law compelled them to come down hard on fraud [2]. This interperation was later confirmed by the courts. It was only much later that the court made a U-turn on that decision. > I didn't really leave it out, I just don't think it's relevant. It's relevant because the laws which caused all this (which the tax service interperted as "we are compelled to come down hard on fraud") were a direct result of that fraud [2]. [1] https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2021/12/13/formatieblog-13-december-a4068632 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2021/12/13/formatieblog-13-decembe... [2] https://decorrespondent.nl/12103/lees-of-luister-hier-gratis-het-boek-van-jesse-frederik-zo-hadden-we-het-niet-bedoeld-de-tragedie-achter-de-toeslagenaffaire/4126527096692-d416ee15 https://decorrespondent.nl/12103/lees-of-luister-hier-gratis...
  - _abox 5y ago
    With the bullying I refer to the tax service employees celebrating "afpakjesdag" ("taking away day"). It sounds like anything but normal professional behaviour with the citizen's rights in mind. It sounds like bureaucracy gone unchecked, serving its own goals. They also frustrated affected parents by sending them highly censored documents that didn't help them at all. The goals I have to admit were an assumption. But why would they celebrate it as a "win" otherwise? I didn't know about the court ruling but I would trust that no court would mandate fining innocent people, otherwise there's an even bigger problem. I imagine they overinterpreted or used this as an excuse. The tax office also feels free to ignore laws, like GDPR (AVG) which they were way too late in complying with. So why obey this one so strictly? I also didn't know that this would now be direct billed no. I don't live in the Netherlands anymore. And I don't have kids so I was never impacted. I just know what I've seen in mainstream media around the time of the inquiry. But it sounds like this should have been done right from the start. And I think the "omgekeerde bewijslast" should be changed to normal criminal rules of "innocent until proven guilty". This is what I was referring to when saying no changes were made. This particular issue has been addressed by the direct billing but the systemic failures that led to it all running out of control have not been. It could all happen again with some other process. You clearly know more about the ins and outs of this than me though, and I wasn't aware of the court decision or the direct billing, and only vaguely of the original fraud scandal that led to this. And I have made some assumptions about the goals. I just can't see how else they would have gone this far and celebrated it. I'm sorry for these errors. But I still think this was a serious failure of the system and the fact that a government fell over it shows I'm not the only one.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

I didn't really leave it out, I just don't think it's relevant. I don't think knowingly persecuting citizens (in bulk!) for something they did not commit is something that ever should happen. The tax service literally flagged people based on nothing and then pushed on without listening to any arguments from their side. This is not "tougher on fraud". This is just pure bullying to inflate "frauds caught" numbers, helped by the "guilty unless proven innocent" policy which is really unfair. Many of these innocent people are still waiting for compensation! Of course there were some that did commit fraud. And the current privatised system is really prone to abuse anyway. With the old state-run system every healthcare was given 'in kind' and there was no need for financial reimbursements. They should take money loop out of the system again. Then there will be no more scope for abuse in this way. All these dodgy agencies only cropped up to take advantage of the privatised system. And in many cases parents were not aware of their dodgy nature - in any case those agencies should be the ones being prosecuted, not the parents. But no real systemic changes were made. An apology to those affected, some promises for compensation they're still waiting on. And things are back as they always were.

jsiepkes 5y ago
> But no real systemic changes were made. > [...] > They should take money loop out of the system again. Apparantly you missed the fact that the whole child day-care compensation system is going to be changed [1]. Parents will no longer receive money but the money will go directly to the day-care (and eventually 100% of the costs will be covered). > This is just pure bullying to inflate "frauds caught" numbers I can't find any source that says so (and you don't provide a source). The only reason mentioned anywhere was the tax service thought the law compelled them to come down hard on fraud [2]. This interperation was later confirmed by the courts. It was only much later that the court made a U-turn on that decision. > I didn't really leave it out, I just don't think it's relevant. It's relevant because the laws which caused all this (which the tax service interperted as "we are compelled to come down hard on fraud") were a direct result of that fraud [2]. [1] https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2021/12/13/formatieblog-13-december-a4068632 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2021/12/13/formatieblog-13-decembe... [2] https://decorrespondent.nl/12103/lees-of-luister-hier-gratis-het-boek-van-jesse-frederik-zo-hadden-we-het-niet-bedoeld-de-tragedie-achter-de-toeslagenaffaire/4126527096692-d416ee15 https://decorrespondent.nl/12103/lees-of-luister-hier-gratis...
- _abox 5y ago
  With the bullying I refer to the tax service employees celebrating "afpakjesdag" ("taking away day"). It sounds like anything but normal professional behaviour with the citizen's rights in mind. It sounds like bureaucracy gone unchecked, serving its own goals. They also frustrated affected parents by sending them highly censored documents that didn't help them at all. The goals I have to admit were an assumption. But why would they celebrate it as a "win" otherwise? I didn't know about the court ruling but I would trust that no court would mandate fining innocent people, otherwise there's an even bigger problem. I imagine they overinterpreted or used this as an excuse. The tax office also feels free to ignore laws, like GDPR (AVG) which they were way too late in complying with. So why obey this one so strictly? I also didn't know that this would now be direct billed no. I don't live in the Netherlands anymore. And I don't have kids so I was never impacted. I just know what I've seen in mainstream media around the time of the inquiry. But it sounds like this should have been done right from the start. And I think the "omgekeerde bewijslast" should be changed to normal criminal rules of "innocent until proven guilty". This is what I was referring to when saying no changes were made. This particular issue has been addressed by the direct billing but the systemic failures that led to it all running out of control have not been. It could all happen again with some other process. You clearly know more about the ins and outs of this than me though, and I wasn't aware of the court decision or the direct billing, and only vaguely of the original fraud scandal that led to this. And I have made some assumptions about the goals. I just can't see how else they would have gone this far and celebrated it. I'm sorry for these errors. But I still think this was a serious failure of the system and the fact that a government fell over it shows I'm not the only one.