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I think you are being overly dismissive of a language that you claim to haven't even played with. Go has been in existence since 2009, so has a 10 year develop

by Tozen 5y ago

I think you are being overly dismissive of a language that you claim to haven't even played with. Go has been in existence since 2009, so has a 10 year developmental head start on V (mid 2019), and not to mention Go having a major player like Google in their back pocket. But, that can be seen as a bit of an disadvantage too, where Google can direct and influence the language to its purposes versus the majority. V is in alpha, and has been making steady progress and changes over the last few years. To get an idea about this, refer to https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 or search their feature request history. The developers and contributors had and are clearly having a healthy exchange on what features they believe are best for the language. It's at 0.2.4, and have stated they won't lock in most things until 0.3. Which at their rate of progress (based on their history), looks like that will be this year. Then they are shooting for 1.0 (which is quite fast). Some volatility is expected type behavior for such a relatively young language. Various things are options or "up in the air" versus built-in or might not make the cut for 0.3. Which is understandable. Various people and "angry" supporters of other languages, are acting like everything about V was supposed to be carved in stone and on lock from day 1. Actually, as if the developers were suppose to supply a finished product upon its release on GitHub. That's outrageously unrealistic and bias hostility that appears to show threatened interests. I'm sure they will be updating their website to reflect the state of their language, as necessary. Their users, contributors, and developers understand where they are at.

Zababa 5y ago
You're missing my point. V not being as developped as other languages is perfectly fine, and I have no issues with that. My problem here is one of trust. The people behind the language have made wild claims that are objectively false. That is my issue with it. They have been called out for it multiple times. The first time I discovered V was in 2019, the website still hasn't been updated to reflect the truth. This, to me, is a dealbreaker. I feel like I can't trust the people behind this language. This is more important for me than the technical merits or lack of of the language. > Some volatility is expected type behavior for such a relatively young language. Various things are options or "up in the air" versus built-in or might not make the cut for 0.3. Which is understandable. It is understandable, what I'm asking them is to be clear and honest about that. > Various people and "angry" supporters of other languages, are acting like everything about V was supposed to be carved in stone and on lock from day 1. Actually, as if the developers were suppose to supply a finished product upon its release on GitHub. That's outrageously unrealistic and bias hostility that appears to show threatened interests. I think you're being a bit too paranoid here. The vast majority of new languages fail without anyone trying to make them fail. Especially these days in the "C/C++ replacement" niche. There's at least Ada, Rust, D, Zig, Go, Nim, Odin, Myrddin, ATS, Swift. There are probably way more than I forgot. > I'm sure they will be updating their website to reflect the state of their language, as necessary. What makes you so sure? They haven't been doing it in the last 3 years. I think you're the one showing pro-V biais here in the face of objective evidence. > Their users, contributors, and developers understand where they are at. But they still show something else to everyone. This is my issue, a lack of clarity, honesty ; thus creating a lack of trust for me.
- Tozen 5y ago
  > My problem here is one of trust. The "trust" argument appears disingenuous. There is a difference between a bias preference or supporting another language, versus not trusting. Anybody who took the time to actually use the language and study them on GitHub, would see they are on a tremendous development pace where they have been doing weekly releases for years (https://github.com/vlang/v/releases https://github.com/vlang/v/releases). That's called consistency. Usually the hallmark of reliability, which can instill trust. On GitHub (https://github.com/vlang https://github.com/vlang), you can see the activity of not only V, but many of the related projects such as vc, vinix, gitly, vls, vab, etc... > The people behind the language have made wild claims that are objectively false. > It is understandable, what I'm asking them is to be clear and honest about that. Again, this is quite a distorted take, which many might say is clouded by bias. V's GitHub (https://github.com/vlang https://github.com/vlang) very accurately shows the state and activity of the programming language. There are no "wild claims" on V's GitHub, other than clear and precise data, activity, and releases. In regards to V's web page (https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/), they describe the language relatively accurately, in addition to promotion. No different to what other languages do. For example, Nim describes itself as "efficient, expressive, elegant". Really? Is that a "wild claim" too or simple self promotion? For greater clarity, it's quite simple to click the link to the documentation on V's web page (https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/doc/docs.md https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/doc/docs.md), which goes over the features and capabilities of the language more precisely. There is no "wild claims" in their documentation, other than the usual need for some updates here and there, for a language in alpha. If anything, the "wild claim" is to keep saying or pretending V is vaporware, as if it doesn't exist, after more than 84 releases (they just had a new one), YouTube videos, ebooks, documentation, etc... > That is my issue with it. They have been called out for it multiple times. The first time I discovered V was in 2019... V was debatably being called out by advocates and supporters of other competing programming languages before they could even release an alpha on GitHub (mid 2019). Then the developers were getting dragged, as if the just released alpha was supposed to be a finished product. And if you read into the various back and forth, there appeared to be elements of jealousy and odd focus over them having Patreon support or it being equivalent to that of their preferred language. That's more indicative of "cat fighting" between languages and disguised pettiness. > I think you're being a bit too paranoid here. The vast majority of new languages fail without anyone trying to make them fail. Especially these days in the "C/C++ replacement" niche. There's at least Ada, Rust, D, Zig, Go, Nim, Odin, Myrddin, ATS, Swift. There are probably way more than I forgot. Not being paranoid, so much as calling it as I see it. There is a lot of bias and competitiveness between languages. So, when assessing the viability of a language, its best to see through some of what is being said. True, many languages and projects have failed. This then demonstrates that V's present weekly release schedule makes them even more credible. They are demonstrating that they can independently stand with Rust, Go, Zig, and Nim as a useful language.

by Tozen 5y ago

Zababa 5y ago

You're missing my point. V not being as developped as other languages is perfectly fine, and I have no issues with that. My problem here is one of trust. The people behind the language have made wild claims that are objectively false. That is my issue with it. They have been called out for it multiple times. The first time I discovered V was in 2019, the website still hasn't been updated to reflect the truth. This, to me, is a dealbreaker. I feel like I can't trust the people behind this language. This is more important for me than the technical merits or lack of of the language. > Some volatility is expected type behavior for such a relatively young language. Various things are options or "up in the air" versus built-in or might not make the cut for 0.3. Which is understandable. It is understandable, what I'm asking them is to be clear and honest about that. > Various people and "angry" supporters of other languages, are acting like everything about V was supposed to be carved in stone and on lock from day 1. Actually, as if the developers were suppose to supply a finished product upon its release on GitHub. That's outrageously unrealistic and bias hostility that appears to show threatened interests. I think you're being a bit too paranoid here. The vast majority of new languages fail without anyone trying to make them fail. Especially these days in the "C/C++ replacement" niche. There's at least Ada, Rust, D, Zig, Go, Nim, Odin, Myrddin, ATS, Swift. There are probably way more than I forgot. > I'm sure they will be updating their website to reflect the state of their language, as necessary. What makes you so sure? They haven't been doing it in the last 3 years. I think you're the one showing pro-V biais here in the face of objective evidence. > Their users, contributors, and developers understand where they are at. But they still show something else to everyone. This is my issue, a lack of clarity, honesty ; thus creating a lack of trust for me.

Tozen 5y ago
> My problem here is one of trust. The "trust" argument appears disingenuous. There is a difference between a bias preference or supporting another language, versus not trusting. Anybody who took the time to actually use the language and study them on GitHub, would see they are on a tremendous development pace where they have been doing weekly releases for years (https://github.com/vlang/v/releases https://github.com/vlang/v/releases). That's called consistency. Usually the hallmark of reliability, which can instill trust. On GitHub (https://github.com/vlang https://github.com/vlang), you can see the activity of not only V, but many of the related projects such as vc, vinix, gitly, vls, vab, etc... > The people behind the language have made wild claims that are objectively false. > It is understandable, what I'm asking them is to be clear and honest about that. Again, this is quite a distorted take, which many might say is clouded by bias. V's GitHub (https://github.com/vlang https://github.com/vlang) very accurately shows the state and activity of the programming language. There are no "wild claims" on V's GitHub, other than clear and precise data, activity, and releases. In regards to V's web page (https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/), they describe the language relatively accurately, in addition to promotion. No different to what other languages do. For example, Nim describes itself as "efficient, expressive, elegant". Really? Is that a "wild claim" too or simple self promotion? For greater clarity, it's quite simple to click the link to the documentation on V's web page (https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/doc/docs.md https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/doc/docs.md), which goes over the features and capabilities of the language more precisely. There is no "wild claims" in their documentation, other than the usual need for some updates here and there, for a language in alpha. If anything, the "wild claim" is to keep saying or pretending V is vaporware, as if it doesn't exist, after more than 84 releases (they just had a new one), YouTube videos, ebooks, documentation, etc... > That is my issue with it. They have been called out for it multiple times. The first time I discovered V was in 2019... V was debatably being called out by advocates and supporters of other competing programming languages before they could even release an alpha on GitHub (mid 2019). Then the developers were getting dragged, as if the just released alpha was supposed to be a finished product. And if you read into the various back and forth, there appeared to be elements of jealousy and odd focus over them having Patreon support or it being equivalent to that of their preferred language. That's more indicative of "cat fighting" between languages and disguised pettiness. > I think you're being a bit too paranoid here. The vast majority of new languages fail without anyone trying to make them fail. Especially these days in the "C/C++ replacement" niche. There's at least Ada, Rust, D, Zig, Go, Nim, Odin, Myrddin, ATS, Swift. There are probably way more than I forgot. Not being paranoid, so much as calling it as I see it. There is a lot of bias and competitiveness between languages. So, when assessing the viability of a language, its best to see through some of what is being said. True, many languages and projects have failed. This then demonstrates that V's present weekly release schedule makes them even more credible. They are demonstrating that they can independently stand with Rust, Go, Zig, and Nim as a useful language.