6 ms·

And italy? And a terrible idea.

by tagoregrtst 5y ago

anonporridge 5y ago
Why?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Just the other day, there was a thread on HN about how terrible it was that employers could look at a candidate's salary history before making an offer.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    For a lot of state/government employees in the USA, salaries are public record. It's not really that uncommon.
  - Skinney 5y ago
    In Norway, this is normally asked during the interview. If the employeer would look up your tax returns, you’d be notified of it and, at least for me, it would be such a huge red flag that I would almost unconditionally decline an offer.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Couldn't they just buy the data from companies that scrape it and sell access more discretely?
      - Skinney 5y ago
        You need to login with your BankID (national auth provider) which is bound to your personal id number, and which is illegal to use for machine access, so no.
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    Yeah, that kinda sounds bad, but then again, if your salary is below what you should deserve, you just change jobs again with a higher salary request.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      In the US job changes aren't trivial. Health plans impact provider networks and coverage. In some areas employers demand in office with which reduces the pool of available employers.
  - hetspookjee 5y ago
    I'm torn on the subject, for one I think the transparancy is good, especially when viewed in the public sphere, but on the other hand, like HN mentioned: it's bad that the "ladder syndrom" might occur: e.g. one only hops a certain % in salary. On the other hand, one might also view what all the collegues are earning and the "past" wouldn't be a relevant anymore, but rather the merits one might bring to a company. In addition I find tax Returns different from salary history, though for most indeed would be the same. and finally I find it not the same that for the Experian flavor one has to pay to get some info, where the Norway variant is free for all to see.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    Doesn't this go both ways? Employees would have perfect visibility into their peer's (and boss's) salaries and it would be impossible for employers to covertly take advantage of people with less leverage and poor negotiation skills?
    - lelandfe 5y ago
      I'm confident that https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ would be updated over night with that info if it became available stateside.
    - jka 5y ago
      In some cases equity and share grants could muddy the waters a bit there (salary isn't everything), but yep, I think that if salary transparency commenced, then total compensation transparency would likely follow shortly afterwards. There's a meme I've heard that it's difficult for some people to discover that their salaries are lower than their peers. I can understand that, but equally I don't totally understand it as an argument for continuing to pay people less. (it might not be the strongest argument against, it's probably worth finding others too)
  - gonzo41 5y ago
    The candidate can also grab the business card of a few peers at the company and look at their salaries. The visibility goes both ways.
    - vidarh 5y ago
      It's not that easy, because you get the taxable income, and e.g. mortgage interest and other debt interest is a deduction in Norway, so while the taxable income gives an indication it's a very unreliable proxy on the lower end.
  - gostsamo 5y ago
    I posted this yesterday exactly because of the salaries post. It didn't get lots of attention back then but it seems that the post has gotten some sponsorship from the moderators. My personal opinion is that it might not have a busting effect on any one activity except journalism, but it might be a stop measure for some politicians and public figures.
- tagoregrtst 5y ago
  Because its a deeply personal piece of information for many people. Personally, Id rather have my medical history available to the public than my personal wealth or income (and Im loath to give that up!). No one except my wife knows how much I make. In the case of my parents, my mom has never known how much money my dad makes. They may seem strange to you, it may seem barbaric or backwards. That’s irrelevant - I’m firmly entrenched in this position and wont help you release this data (through my vote, and legal lawsuits, clearly). You can’t dismiss me as an eccentric American behind the more enlightened Europeans - Im not American, I am and grew up in Europe, I just live in the US. Nor am I or did I grow up rich. Growing up, my dad whenever my dad was doing the bills he joked he was feeding a blackhole (debt). We never knew how big this hole was, but we knew where it came from - even a hard working engineer has a steep financial hill when you’re from a poor country. You really must understand ours is a deep seated difference in points of view. My mom has never asked how much my dad made, my dad has yet to tell her. My mom had a vague idea how much she could spend (her guesstimate was very good) my dad never enquired what she spent money on. He himself never spent any money except on us. The result is they never fought over money, the most common marital problem (I guarantee you this. Both my parents would rather be paupers than put money between their relationship - they are both very stoic and devoted to each other). I doubt this would have been the case had my mom ever displayed any interest in money. So what does making my tax returns or my salary (probably the lowest among my colleagues) publicly available mean to us? It means inviting strangers into our intimate space, more intimate than the fact that I have a rare auto immune disease Ill share with a random person on the internet (anonymized, of course :P ). You see, there are people who view this information not merely as a means to a more just society (whatever that means anymore) but as a very intimate part of their family life. Just because some cannot see that doesn’t mean it isn't real.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Why consider it intimate data? Fear it will cause spousal resentment, impact future offers, being targeted by gold diggers or grifters? Wealth tied to identity?
    - ramphastidae 5y ago

And italy? And a terrible idea.

anonporridge 5y ago

Why?

WalterBright 5y ago
Just the other day, there was a thread on HN about how terrible it was that employers could look at a candidate's salary history before making an offer.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  For a lot of state/government employees in the USA, salaries are public record. It's not really that uncommon.
- Skinney 5y ago
  In Norway, this is normally asked during the interview. If the employeer would look up your tax returns, you’d be notified of it and, at least for me, it would be such a huge red flag that I would almost unconditionally decline an offer.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Couldn't they just buy the data from companies that scrape it and sell access more discretely?
    - Skinney 5y ago
      You need to login with your BankID (national auth provider) which is bound to your personal id number, and which is illegal to use for machine access, so no.
- vegai_ 5y ago
  Yeah, that kinda sounds bad, but then again, if your salary is below what you should deserve, you just change jobs again with a higher salary request.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    In the US job changes aren't trivial. Health plans impact provider networks and coverage. In some areas employers demand in office with which reduces the pool of available employers.
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  I'm torn on the subject, for one I think the transparancy is good, especially when viewed in the public sphere, but on the other hand, like HN mentioned: it's bad that the "ladder syndrom" might occur: e.g. one only hops a certain % in salary. On the other hand, one might also view what all the collegues are earning and the "past" wouldn't be a relevant anymore, but rather the merits one might bring to a company. In addition I find tax Returns different from salary history, though for most indeed would be the same. and finally I find it not the same that for the Experian flavor one has to pay to get some info, where the Norway variant is free for all to see.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Doesn't this go both ways? Employees would have perfect visibility into their peer's (and boss's) salaries and it would be impossible for employers to covertly take advantage of people with less leverage and poor negotiation skills?
  - lelandfe 5y ago
    I'm confident that https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ would be updated over night with that info if it became available stateside.
  - jka 5y ago
    In some cases equity and share grants could muddy the waters a bit there (salary isn't everything), but yep, I think that if salary transparency commenced, then total compensation transparency would likely follow shortly afterwards. There's a meme I've heard that it's difficult for some people to discover that their salaries are lower than their peers. I can understand that, but equally I don't totally understand it as an argument for continuing to pay people less. (it might not be the strongest argument against, it's probably worth finding others too)
- gonzo41 5y ago
  The candidate can also grab the business card of a few peers at the company and look at their salaries. The visibility goes both ways.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    It's not that easy, because you get the taxable income, and e.g. mortgage interest and other debt interest is a deduction in Norway, so while the taxable income gives an indication it's a very unreliable proxy on the lower end.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  I posted this yesterday exactly because of the salaries post. It didn't get lots of attention back then but it seems that the post has gotten some sponsorship from the moderators. My personal opinion is that it might not have a busting effect on any one activity except journalism, but it might be a stop measure for some politicians and public figures.
tagoregrtst 5y ago
Because its a deeply personal piece of information for many people. Personally, Id rather have my medical history available to the public than my personal wealth or income (and Im loath to give that up!). No one except my wife knows how much I make. In the case of my parents, my mom has never known how much money my dad makes. They may seem strange to you, it may seem barbaric or backwards. That’s irrelevant - I’m firmly entrenched in this position and wont help you release this data (through my vote, and legal lawsuits, clearly). You can’t dismiss me as an eccentric American behind the more enlightened Europeans - Im not American, I am and grew up in Europe, I just live in the US. Nor am I or did I grow up rich. Growing up, my dad whenever my dad was doing the bills he joked he was feeding a blackhole (debt). We never knew how big this hole was, but we knew where it came from - even a hard working engineer has a steep financial hill when you’re from a poor country. You really must understand ours is a deep seated difference in points of view. My mom has never asked how much my dad made, my dad has yet to tell her. My mom had a vague idea how much she could spend (her guesstimate was very good) my dad never enquired what she spent money on. He himself never spent any money except on us. The result is they never fought over money, the most common marital problem (I guarantee you this. Both my parents would rather be paupers than put money between their relationship - they are both very stoic and devoted to each other). I doubt this would have been the case had my mom ever displayed any interest in money. So what does making my tax returns or my salary (probably the lowest among my colleagues) publicly available mean to us? It means inviting strangers into our intimate space, more intimate than the fact that I have a rare auto immune disease Ill share with a random person on the internet (anonymized, of course :P ). You see, there are people who view this information not merely as a means to a more just society (whatever that means anymore) but as a very intimate part of their family life. Just because some cannot see that doesn’t mean it isn't real.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Why consider it intimate data? Fear it will cause spousal resentment, impact future offers, being targeted by gold diggers or grifters? Wealth tied to identity?
  - ramphastidae 5y ago