7 ms·

It isn't though: tax returns are public in Sweden and Finland too.

• tagoregrtst 5y ago
  And italy? And a terrible idea.
  • anonporridge 5y ago
    Why?
    • WalterBright 5y ago
      Just the other day, there was a thread on HN about how terrible it was that employers could look at a candidate's salary history before making an offer.
      • throwawayboise 5y ago
        For a lot of state/government employees in the USA, salaries are public record. It's not really that uncommon.
      • Skinney 5y ago
        In Norway, this is normally asked during the interview. If the employeer would look up your tax returns, you’d be notified of it and, at least for me, it would be such a huge red flag that I would almost unconditionally decline an offer.
        • paulryanrogers 5y ago
          Couldn't they just buy the data from companies that scrape it and sell access more discretely?
          • Skinney 5y ago
            You need to login with your BankID (national auth provider) which is bound to your personal id number, and which is illegal to use for machine access, so no.
      • vegai_ 5y ago
        Yeah, that kinda sounds bad, but then again, if your salary is below what you should deserve, you just change jobs again with a higher salary request.
        • paulryanrogers 5y ago
          In the US job changes aren't trivial. Health plans impact provider networks and coverage. In some areas employers demand in office with which reduces the pool of available employers.
      • hetspookjee 5y ago
        I'm torn on the subject, for one I think the transparancy is good, especially when viewed in the public sphere, but on the other hand, like HN mentioned: it's bad that the "ladder syndrom" might occur: e.g. one only hops a certain % in salary. On the other hand, one might also view what all the collegues are earning and the "past" wouldn't be a relevant anymore, but rather the merits one might bring to a company. In addition I find tax Returns different from salary history, though for most indeed would be the same. and finally I find it not the same that for the Experian flavor one has to pay to get some info, where the Norway variant is free for all to see.
      • anonporridge 5y ago
        Doesn't this go both ways? Employees would have perfect visibility into their peer's (and boss's) salaries and it would be impossible for employers to covertly take advantage of people with less leverage and poor negotiation skills?
        • lelandfe 5y ago
          I'm confident that https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ would be updated over night with that info if it became available stateside.
        • jka 5y ago
          In some cases equity and share grants could muddy the waters a bit there (salary isn't everything), but yep, I think that if salary transparency commenced, then total compensation transparency would likely follow shortly afterwards. There's a meme I've heard that it's difficult for some people to discover that their salaries are lower than their peers. I can understand that, but equally I don't totally understand it as an argument for continuing to pay people less. (it might not be the strongest argument against, it's probably worth finding others too)
      • gonzo41 5y ago
        The candidate can also grab the business card of a few peers at the company and look at their salaries. The visibility goes both ways.
        • vidarh 5y ago
          It's not that easy, because you get the taxable income, and e.g. mortgage interest and other debt interest is a deduction in Norway, so while the taxable income gives an indication it's a very unreliable proxy on the lower end.
      • gostsamo 5y ago
        I posted this yesterday exactly because of the salaries post. It didn't get lots of attention back then but it seems that the post has gotten some sponsorship from the moderators. My personal opinion is that it might not have a busting effect on any one activity except journalism, but it might be a stop measure for some politicians and public figures.
    • tagoregrtst 5y ago
      Because its a deeply personal piece of information for many people. Personally, Id rather have my medical history available to the public than my personal wealth or income (and Im loath to give that up!). No one except my wife knows how much I make. In the case of my parents, my mom has never known how much money my dad makes. They may seem strange to you, it may seem barbaric or backwards. That’s irrelevant - I’m firmly entrenched in this position and wont help you release this data (through my vote, and legal lawsuits, clearly). You can’t dismiss me as an eccentric American behind the more enlightened Europeans - Im not American, I am and grew up in Europe, I just live in the US. Nor am I or did I grow up rich. Growing up, my dad whenever my dad was doing the bills he joked he was feeding a blackhole (debt). We never knew how big this hole was, but we knew where it came from - even a hard working engineer has a steep financial hill when you’re from a poor country. You really must understand ours is a deep seated difference in points of view. My mom has never asked how much my dad made, my dad has yet to tell her. My mom had a vague idea how much she could spend (her guesstimate was very good) my dad never enquired what she spent money on. He himself never spent any money except on us. The result is they never fought over money, the most common marital problem (I guarantee you this. Both my parents would rather be paupers than put money between their relationship - they are both very stoic and devoted to each other). I doubt this would have been the case had my mom ever displayed any interest in money. So what does making my tax returns or my salary (probably the lowest among my colleagues) publicly available mean to us? It means inviting strangers into our intimate space, more intimate than the fact that I have a rare auto immune disease Ill share with a random person on the internet (anonymized, of course :P ). You see, there are people who view this information not merely as a means to a more just society (whatever that means anymore) but as a very intimate part of their family life. Just because some cannot see that doesn’t mean it isn't real.
      • paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Why consider it intimate data? Fear it will cause spousal resentment, impact future offers, being targeted by gold diggers or grifters? Wealth tied to identity?
        • ramphastidae 5y ago
• neximo64 5y ago
  If it's really public in those places could you please cite the leaders of each countries tax returns with a direct link?
  • jks 5y ago
    In Finland newspapers get the data and run their own search engines of the highest earners. For example: https://verokone.hs.fi/ https://verokone.hs.fi/
  • helsinkiandrew 5y ago
    In Finland, to stop a free for all of 'nosy parkers' you have to physically visit a tax office to view the information. This results in a few newspaper reports of the biggest payers around the time the information is released (https://yle.fi/news/3-12181764 https://yle.fi/news/3-12181764) and then everyone looses interest. https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/data-security-and-information-access/public-information-on-taxes/public-information-on-individual-income-taxes/ https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/d...
    • vidarh 5y ago
      This used to be exactly how it was in Norway too. It changed when internet got popular and everything was dumped online with no restrictions for a few years until people realised how much more invasive that got than the prior system, so now you have to log in and people can see whether or not their name has been looked up if you do it online.
• dheera 5y ago
  How do rich people who aren't yet filthy-rich enough to have their own bodyguards deal with personal security in these places? In the US, if you hypothetically had, say, $10M net worth, you'd be best to not let anyone know, and stay under the radar. If you have a billion then it doesn't matter, go all out and hire your own 24/7 security team.
  • s1artibartfast 5y ago
    You make sure crime doesn't pay. Simple as that. Countries with kidnapping are ones with very porous policing. You can go into any affluent neighborhood in the USA and see people worth 10m plus walking around with no bodyguards.
    • paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Key word there is neighborhood. Even in the Midwest US there can be very 'safe' neighborhoods right next to very unsafe ones, and the difference in the police resources from one block to the next is palpable. Forcing construction of mixed income neighborhoods (much like forced busing of students) very quickly improves schooling and policing outcomes, though sadly more affluent folks often move out soon thereafter.
  • mongol 5y ago
    They start to move abroad. Seriously. Violent crime such as robbery at gunpoint in your own home, car jackings etc is an increasing problem which worry many in Sweden. It is perhaps not common but is increasing with a worrying pace.
    • wobblybubble 5y ago
      That seems like such a middle class worry. I don’t see how people with tens of millions of USD (or equivalent of course) are more susceptible to opportunistic crimes like robberies and car jackings. If anything they are less susceptible since they can move to nicer places.
• brtkdotse 5y ago
  I’m Sweden at least, it requires a little bit of hoop jumping and has prompted several grey zone companies to spring up. The companies get a publishing license, effectively giving them the same free speech protection as the press. They then request all the information from the government and offer it in a easy UI, for a nominal charge of course.
• fy20 5y ago
  Anyone who is a contractor - working through a personal service company - effectively makes their tax returns public in the UK as well.
• jb1991 5y ago
  You should read the article because it talks about the distinctions between those three countries very clearly.
  • aliswe 5y ago
    > In Sweden and Finland, people can find out about anyone else’s tax returns just by making a phone call, but Norway is the only country where you can just look up that information on a government website. You can also visit the closest Skatteverket and use their computers, I used to do it as a kid... Oh and you dont have to speak to anyone or identify yourself to do it either.