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>One of RMS' goals was to have the ability to study and learn from the software and systems you were using. This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOS

>One of RMS' goals was to have the ability to study and learn from the software and systems you were using. This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them >It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness I must admit, I do understand this sentiment. Working in a proprietary system its harder to imagine how I would want to change things to better work for you, because I can't see how it works. I wouldn't know what to change because I don't know what's in there, it makes things more difficult to see all the possibilities with the lack of information

GlenTheMachine 5y ago
In theory, sure. But this requires that you be a coder, effectively, and not just a coder but a coder with time on his/her hands. If I'm a professional photographer I'm paid essentially by throughput. The more pictures I take, edit, and post, the more money I make. I literally can't afford to dive into the source for GIMP to try to customize my workflow, even if I had the coding skills to do so. And that's my point really. Yes, IF I'M A CODER, Linux is superb. But if I'm not, those benefits don't really benefit me. To be clear, I personally am a coder. Even then, though, how many of us really have the time to debug Linux device drivers? I don't.
- nescioquid 5y ago
  GlenTheMachine, I responded to you because what you said struck a chord in me. Were I a truth-sayer, dawn's light would once more meet your eyes. Yet, I am split; in my older, enervated state, I simply want my tools to get the fuck out of my way. But that is mediated by my understanding of "the way", which was informed by the myriad practitioners eager to spill the secrets of how things really work (i.e. de rerum natura), and to them I give my eternal thanks. As a photographer, perhaps you can empathize with the likes of Edgard Varèse or Charles Ives. Ives decided to earn his filthy lucre in insurance so that he could write a symphony (the rehearsal of which was hired out to the BSO) in which the 4th trumpet had but one note to play. The artistic and idealistic in a single 4th trumpet tone. If, on the other hand, you are saying you are owed some factory for your blind impress to stamp out mercantile -- here we part company. Have at you whatever promised fiefdom the FAANG (or is it MANGA) might, of its own beneficence carve out for you. Have at you: be you artist or manufacturer?
  - thakoppno 5y ago
    > I'm paid essentially by throughput I’ll take it down a notch and start with I agree with both of you. One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired.
    - ungamedplayer 5y ago
      > One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired. This is the end game and the reason why many opensource programmers work the way they do, not only to scratch their own itch, but to instead leave the world in a better digital state than what they found it.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Like, I'm a professional C++ coder for living, but whenever something breaks in Linux I don't even know where to start fixing it. I'd just rather not deal with it.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  You can also pay someone else to work on the GIMP for you. You don't have that option for Photoshop.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  If you pick your hardware somewhat carefully you won't have to waste time into it. I feel like the misconception Linux tends to break is because of Ubuntu. It's easily the most popular distribution and every time I had the misfortune of working with it I run into packaging issues and upgrade issues every 6 months. Once I switched to rolling release distros I had way less problems.
emodendroket 5y ago
> This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them This is a little like calling a dilapidated home a "handyman's dream." The vast majority of computer users want to accomplish their task with minimal fuss, not learn about computers.
rfoo 5y ago
> Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them Well, using proprietary system as a child made me a reverse engineer instead :P
blep-arsh 5y ago
I've stopped using desktop Linux at home because it's, unsurprisingly, a rather complex system with lots and lots of moving parts (moreover, some of the parts tend to get replaced often) and it has some annoying UI issues I consider unacceptable. I did some research and concluded that proper fixes for these issues are effectively insurmountable for a very-part-time developer like me, and workarounds will just keep breaking. Sure, I can read the code, I understand how the system works to some extent, but actually changing it requires orders of magnitude more energy.

GlenTheMachine 5y ago

In theory, sure. But this requires that you be a coder, effectively, and not just a coder but a coder with time on his/her hands. If I'm a professional photographer I'm paid essentially by throughput. The more pictures I take, edit, and post, the more money I make. I literally can't afford to dive into the source for GIMP to try to customize my workflow, even if I had the coding skills to do so. And that's my point really. Yes, IF I'M A CODER, Linux is superb. But if I'm not, those benefits don't really benefit me. To be clear, I personally am a coder. Even then, though, how many of us really have the time to debug Linux device drivers? I don't.

nescioquid 5y ago
GlenTheMachine, I responded to you because what you said struck a chord in me. Were I a truth-sayer, dawn's light would once more meet your eyes. Yet, I am split; in my older, enervated state, I simply want my tools to get the fuck out of my way. But that is mediated by my understanding of "the way", which was informed by the myriad practitioners eager to spill the secrets of how things really work (i.e. de rerum natura), and to them I give my eternal thanks. As a photographer, perhaps you can empathize with the likes of Edgard Varèse or Charles Ives. Ives decided to earn his filthy lucre in insurance so that he could write a symphony (the rehearsal of which was hired out to the BSO) in which the 4th trumpet had but one note to play. The artistic and idealistic in a single 4th trumpet tone. If, on the other hand, you are saying you are owed some factory for your blind impress to stamp out mercantile -- here we part company. Have at you whatever promised fiefdom the FAANG (or is it MANGA) might, of its own beneficence carve out for you. Have at you: be you artist or manufacturer?
- thakoppno 5y ago
  > I'm paid essentially by throughput I’ll take it down a notch and start with I agree with both of you. One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired.
  - ungamedplayer 5y ago
    > One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired. This is the end game and the reason why many opensource programmers work the way they do, not only to scratch their own itch, but to instead leave the world in a better digital state than what they found it.
gambiting 5y ago
Like, I'm a professional C++ coder for living, but whenever something breaks in Linux I don't even know where to start fixing it. I'd just rather not deal with it.
Symbiote 5y ago
You can also pay someone else to work on the GIMP for you. You don't have that option for Photoshop.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jokethrowaway 5y ago
If you pick your hardware somewhat carefully you won't have to waste time into it. I feel like the misconception Linux tends to break is because of Ubuntu. It's easily the most popular distribution and every time I had the misfortune of working with it I run into packaging issues and upgrade issues every 6 months. Once I switched to rolling release distros I had way less problems.

emodendroket 5y ago

> This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them This is a little like calling a dilapidated home a "handyman's dream." The vast majority of computer users want to accomplish their task with minimal fuss, not learn about computers.

rfoo 5y ago

> Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them Well, using proprietary system as a child made me a reverse engineer instead :P

blep-arsh 5y ago

I've stopped using desktop Linux at home because it's, unsurprisingly, a rather complex system with lots and lots of moving parts (moreover, some of the parts tend to get replaced often) and it has some annoying UI issues I consider unacceptable. I did some research and concluded that proper fixes for these issues are effectively insurmountable for a very-part-time developer like me, and workarounds will just keep breaking. Sure, I can read the code, I understand how the system works to some extent, but actually changing it requires orders of magnitude more energy.