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> It's a little ironic, but I find Linux to be perfect for two groups of people: the nearly computer illiterate, and coders. I started using Linux around '99 a

> It's a little ironic, but I find Linux to be perfect for two groups of people: the nearly computer illiterate, and coders. I started using Linux around '99 as a computer-illiterate and became a coder. I see no irony in this. One of RMS' goals was to have the ability to study and learn from the software and systems you were using. That, I feel led to the ubiquity of high-quality documentation and materials - an embarrassment of riches. I ordered physical copies of TLDP (two phone books, in size). I read the slackware manual and learned the basics of how filesystems work and networking (culminating in redirecting X from my single good computer to a couple of dumpster-worthy systems on my home network). I didn't need to fork over money I couldn't afford for a compiler. It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness.

netizen-936824 5y ago
>One of RMS' goals was to have the ability to study and learn from the software and systems you were using. This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them >It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness I must admit, I do understand this sentiment. Working in a proprietary system its harder to imagine how I would want to change things to better work for you, because I can't see how it works. I wouldn't know what to change because I don't know what's in there, it makes things more difficult to see all the possibilities with the lack of information
- GlenTheMachine 5y ago
  In theory, sure. But this requires that you be a coder, effectively, and not just a coder but a coder with time on his/her hands. If I'm a professional photographer I'm paid essentially by throughput. The more pictures I take, edit, and post, the more money I make. I literally can't afford to dive into the source for GIMP to try to customize my workflow, even if I had the coding skills to do so. And that's my point really. Yes, IF I'M A CODER, Linux is superb. But if I'm not, those benefits don't really benefit me. To be clear, I personally am a coder. Even then, though, how many of us really have the time to debug Linux device drivers? I don't.
  - nescioquid 5y ago
    GlenTheMachine, I responded to you because what you said struck a chord in me. Were I a truth-sayer, dawn's light would once more meet your eyes. Yet, I am split; in my older, enervated state, I simply want my tools to get the fuck out of my way. But that is mediated by my understanding of "the way", which was informed by the myriad practitioners eager to spill the secrets of how things really work (i.e. de rerum natura), and to them I give my eternal thanks. As a photographer, perhaps you can empathize with the likes of Edgard Varèse or Charles Ives. Ives decided to earn his filthy lucre in insurance so that he could write a symphony (the rehearsal of which was hired out to the BSO) in which the 4th trumpet had but one note to play. The artistic and idealistic in a single 4th trumpet tone. If, on the other hand, you are saying you are owed some factory for your blind impress to stamp out mercantile -- here we part company. Have at you whatever promised fiefdom the FAANG (or is it MANGA) might, of its own beneficence carve out for you. Have at you: be you artist or manufacturer?
    - thakoppno 5y ago
      > I'm paid essentially by throughput I’ll take it down a notch and start with I agree with both of you. One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired.
      - ungamedplayer 5y ago
        > One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired. This is the end game and the reason why many opensource programmers work the way they do, not only to scratch their own itch, but to instead leave the world in a better digital state than what they found it.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Like, I'm a professional C++ coder for living, but whenever something breaks in Linux I don't even know where to start fixing it. I'd just rather not deal with it.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  > This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them This is a little like calling a dilapidated home a "handyman's dream." The vast majority of computer users want to accomplish their task with minimal fuss, not learn about computers.
- rfoo 5y ago
  > Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them Well, using proprietary system as a child made me a reverse engineer instead :P
- blep-arsh 5y ago
  I've stopped using desktop Linux at home because it's, unsurprisingly, a rather complex system with lots and lots of moving parts (moreover, some of the parts tend to get replaced often) and it has some annoying UI issues I consider unacceptable. I did some research and concluded that proper fixes for these issues are effectively insurmountable for a very-part-time developer like me, and workarounds will just keep breaking. Sure, I can read the code, I understand how the system works to some extent, but actually changing it requires orders of magnitude more energy.
pjerem 5y ago
> It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness. That’s totally it and I’m very concerned about the current/future generations of people who are using fully locked proprietary hardware as their main computer. I have the feeling that this creates an artificial barrier between technology literates and the rest of the world. Sure, it’s probably good for my career but it sounds terribly wrong to live in such a dystopian world. Even the grandmother of the author is very lucky. Because once your grandmother of the future buys the cheapest Surface/Chinese android tablet… good luck installing Linux on this.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  They will do as we did 40 years ago, buy books and software.
kazinator 5y ago
I started using someone else's Linux in 1993, remotely, to help him port a user space threading library written in C to it. The machine was at the guy's house, online via SLIP. Several people in the computer lab were standing behind my back, watching me live code the x86 context switching routines in GNU syntax (which I knew from coding some graphics demos using the DJGPP environment supporting writing extended DOS (DPMI) programs with GCC).

netizen-936824 5y ago

>One of RMS' goals was to have the ability to study and learn from the software and systems you were using. This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them >It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness I must admit, I do understand this sentiment. Working in a proprietary system its harder to imagine how I would want to change things to better work for you, because I can't see how it works. I wouldn't know what to change because I don't know what's in there, it makes things more difficult to see all the possibilities with the lack of information

GlenTheMachine 5y ago
In theory, sure. But this requires that you be a coder, effectively, and not just a coder but a coder with time on his/her hands. If I'm a professional photographer I'm paid essentially by throughput. The more pictures I take, edit, and post, the more money I make. I literally can't afford to dive into the source for GIMP to try to customize my workflow, even if I had the coding skills to do so. And that's my point really. Yes, IF I'M A CODER, Linux is superb. But if I'm not, those benefits don't really benefit me. To be clear, I personally am a coder. Even then, though, how many of us really have the time to debug Linux device drivers? I don't.
- nescioquid 5y ago
  GlenTheMachine, I responded to you because what you said struck a chord in me. Were I a truth-sayer, dawn's light would once more meet your eyes. Yet, I am split; in my older, enervated state, I simply want my tools to get the fuck out of my way. But that is mediated by my understanding of "the way", which was informed by the myriad practitioners eager to spill the secrets of how things really work (i.e. de rerum natura), and to them I give my eternal thanks. As a photographer, perhaps you can empathize with the likes of Edgard Varèse or Charles Ives. Ives decided to earn his filthy lucre in insurance so that he could write a symphony (the rehearsal of which was hired out to the BSO) in which the 4th trumpet had but one note to play. The artistic and idealistic in a single 4th trumpet tone. If, on the other hand, you are saying you are owed some factory for your blind impress to stamp out mercantile -- here we part company. Have at you whatever promised fiefdom the FAANG (or is it MANGA) might, of its own beneficence carve out for you. Have at you: be you artist or manufacturer?
  - thakoppno 5y ago
    > I'm paid essentially by throughput I’ll take it down a notch and start with I agree with both of you. One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired.
    - ungamedplayer 5y ago
      > One thing that maybe is more clear as I have aged, it’s obvious that my lifetime isn’t going to be long enough to see the changes that are most necessary and desired. This is the end game and the reason why many opensource programmers work the way they do, not only to scratch their own itch, but to instead leave the world in a better digital state than what they found it.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Like, I'm a professional C++ coder for living, but whenever something breaks in Linux I don't even know where to start fixing it. I'd just rather not deal with it.
emodendroket 5y ago
> This is a huge understated benefit of Linux and FOSS. Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them This is a little like calling a dilapidated home a "handyman's dream." The vast majority of computer users want to accomplish their task with minimal fuss, not learn about computers.
rfoo 5y ago
> Instead of being hidden you can see how things work, sometimes you might even need to fix them Well, using proprietary system as a child made me a reverse engineer instead :P
blep-arsh 5y ago
I've stopped using desktop Linux at home because it's, unsurprisingly, a rather complex system with lots and lots of moving parts (moreover, some of the parts tend to get replaced often) and it has some annoying UI issues I consider unacceptable. I did some research and concluded that proper fixes for these issues are effectively insurmountable for a very-part-time developer like me, and workarounds will just keep breaking. Sure, I can read the code, I understand how the system works to some extent, but actually changing it requires orders of magnitude more energy.

pjerem 5y ago

> It left me with the lasting bias that free software is liberating and proprietary software leads to learned helplessness. That’s totally it and I’m very concerned about the current/future generations of people who are using fully locked proprietary hardware as their main computer. I have the feeling that this creates an artificial barrier between technology literates and the rest of the world. Sure, it’s probably good for my career but it sounds terribly wrong to live in such a dystopian world. Even the grandmother of the author is very lucky. Because once your grandmother of the future buys the cheapest Surface/Chinese android tablet… good luck installing Linux on this.

pjmlp 5y ago
They will do as we did 40 years ago, buy books and software.

kazinator 5y ago

I started using someone else's Linux in 1993, remotely, to help him port a user space threading library written in C to it. The machine was at the guy's house, online via SLIP. Several people in the computer lab were standing behind my back, watching me live code the x86 context switching routines in GNU syntax (which I knew from coding some graphics demos using the DJGPP environment supporting writing extended DOS (DPMI) programs with GCC).