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> This is why people fucking hate congress. Wholeheartedly agree. And to go one step further: how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something lik

> This is why people fucking hate congress. Wholeheartedly agree. And to go one step further: how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? Representative democracy is utterly broken.

vkou 5y ago
> Representative democracy is utterly broken. It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. You are right on one count, though, there are a lot of broken aspects to this particular flavor of representative democracy. It's the sort of thing that happens when you keep version 1 running in production for 250 years, with limited ability to patch it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. I disagree. There are places where direct democracy works quite well and has for a very long time. The US certainly isn't one of them.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Such as? The only example I can think of where this works is trade unions, who have a rather limited mandate.
  - brg 5y ago
    There is only one direct democracy in the world, and it is Switzerland. What are other examples?
- landemva 5y ago
  Are you thinking USA is running version one? The patching process is called amendments. 17th put lobbyists in control. https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/SeventeenthAmendment.htm https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/...
- tacocataco 5y ago
  > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. So we should just try new ones then?
HWR_14 5y ago
> how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? That seems an unfair burden. Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill. I like clean water, for instance, but my opinion on what that means isn't well developed enough to vote on laws on exactly what should be permitted.
- twofornone 5y ago
  >Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill Our lawmakers aren't exactly subject matter experts either. And their SMEs are probably often just lobbyists.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    This is a fair complaint, and I would welcome a better way for the lawmakers to obtain SME input.
- andreasley 5y ago
  Describing the right to influence legislation as a burden seems exceptionally strange to me. Maybe that's because I've always lived in a direct democracy where it's commonplace to propose or challenge new laws, and while engaging in that process does require a few hours every now and then, I've always felt that's more than worth it.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I'm not saying that the right to influence legislation is a burden. I'm saying, asking, poll-style, how many Americans would vote for X without any education or informed debate is a bad argument. By all means, I very much support citizen led initiatives (and there have been some excellent ones), but not out of the blue as an after the fact evaluation of a law.

vkou 5y ago

> Representative democracy is utterly broken. It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. You are right on one count, though, there are a lot of broken aspects to this particular flavor of representative democracy. It's the sort of thing that happens when you keep version 1 running in production for 250 years, with limited ability to patch it.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ur-whale 5y ago
> It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. I disagree. There are places where direct democracy works quite well and has for a very long time. The US certainly isn't one of them.
- vkou 5y ago
  Such as? The only example I can think of where this works is trade unions, who have a rather limited mandate.
- brg 5y ago
  There is only one direct democracy in the world, and it is Switzerland. What are other examples?
landemva 5y ago
Are you thinking USA is running version one? The patching process is called amendments. 17th put lobbyists in control. https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/SeventeenthAmendment.htm https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/...
tacocataco 5y ago
> It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. So we should just try new ones then?

HWR_14 5y ago

> how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? That seems an unfair burden. Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill. I like clean water, for instance, but my opinion on what that means isn't well developed enough to vote on laws on exactly what should be permitted.

twofornone 5y ago
>Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill Our lawmakers aren't exactly subject matter experts either. And their SMEs are probably often just lobbyists.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  This is a fair complaint, and I would welcome a better way for the lawmakers to obtain SME input.
andreasley 5y ago
Describing the right to influence legislation as a burden seems exceptionally strange to me. Maybe that's because I've always lived in a direct democracy where it's commonplace to propose or challenge new laws, and while engaging in that process does require a few hours every now and then, I've always felt that's more than worth it.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I'm not saying that the right to influence legislation is a burden. I'm saying, asking, poll-style, how many Americans would vote for X without any education or informed debate is a bad argument. By all means, I very much support citizen led initiatives (and there have been some excellent ones), but not out of the blue as an after the fact evaluation of a law.