5 ms·

> The change was made when the American Rescue Plan was passed in March 2021. This is why people fucking hate congress.

ur-whale 5y ago
> This is why people fucking hate congress. Wholeheartedly agree. And to go one step further: how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? Representative democracy is utterly broken.
- vkou 5y ago
  > Representative democracy is utterly broken. It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. You are right on one count, though, there are a lot of broken aspects to this particular flavor of representative democracy. It's the sort of thing that happens when you keep version 1 running in production for 250 years, with limited ability to patch it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. I disagree. There are places where direct democracy works quite well and has for a very long time. The US certainly isn't one of them.
    - vkou 5y ago
      Such as? The only example I can think of where this works is trade unions, who have a rather limited mandate.
    - brg 5y ago
      There is only one direct democracy in the world, and it is Switzerland. What are other examples?
  - landemva 5y ago
    Are you thinking USA is running version one? The patching process is called amendments. 17th put lobbyists in control. https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/SeventeenthAmendment.htm https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/...
  - tacocataco 5y ago
    > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. So we should just try new ones then?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? That seems an unfair burden. Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill. I like clean water, for instance, but my opinion on what that means isn't well developed enough to vote on laws on exactly what should be permitted.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    >Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill Our lawmakers aren't exactly subject matter experts either. And their SMEs are probably often just lobbyists.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      This is a fair complaint, and I would welcome a better way for the lawmakers to obtain SME input.
  - andreasley 5y ago
    Describing the right to influence legislation as a burden seems exceptionally strange to me. Maybe that's because I've always lived in a direct democracy where it's commonplace to propose or challenge new laws, and while engaging in that process does require a few hours every now and then, I've always felt that's more than worth it.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I'm not saying that the right to influence legislation is a burden. I'm saying, asking, poll-style, how many Americans would vote for X without any education or informed debate is a bad argument. By all means, I very much support citizen led initiatives (and there have been some excellent ones), but not out of the blue as an after the fact evaluation of a law.
BurningFrog 5y ago
The trend toward passing one 3000 page bill a year that no one knows what it contains isn't awesome.
- asdff 5y ago
  Pork isn't a new concept in politics.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  It was known and it was a big issue among Republicans. I don't know why the left supported it or didn't know about it. edit: it seems many people truly didn't know about this. It was widely reported in right-leaning news before the American Rescue Bill passed.
HWR_14 5y ago
Why is paperwork optimization an issue for you? Tax cheats literally are stealing from the government, which increases the debt or taxes the rest of us have to pay. The only issue I have is that the IRS cannot send me a draft tax return I can accept or reject based on all the data they collect.
- jksmith 5y ago
  Feel free to comply if you like. If you don't like, there are more optimal places to live than the US. Just have to deal with that nasty US tax issue. Becoming an Eritrean citizen won't help.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    If people want to give up US citizenship and move away, fine by me. I don't particularly think that automated record keeping is significant enough (or even a negative) to drive you to leave the country.
- dylan604 5y ago
  People using loopholes because they have enough money to pay shit tons of money just to lower their tax liability to the point they pay less taxes than someone reading this post is total bullshit as well.
ejstronge 5y ago
This $600 threshold corresponds to the point where a business would have to issue a 1099 to a contractor. It makes sense to have this sort of symmetry - is there a reason you think paying using an app should have different reporting thresholds than using other payment options?
- OminousWeapons 5y ago
  Well you can wire up to 10K without an SAR being sent to the government, so perhaps that should be the number instead?
  - MerelyMortal 5y ago
    Don't worry, the SAR limit will be lowered to $600 to correspond with everything else.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  Hi, I'm from Merriam-Webster. We need to add "Overton Window" to the 2023 edition. OK if we cite your post, not just as an example, but as the literal definition?
  - ejstronge 5y ago
    I’m not sure why you cite an Overton Window - this literally only relates to business payments, just like the 1099 threshold.
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      When the $600 limit was introduced, some of us objected. We were told it was "just for businesses and contractors," and furthermore that "The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy." So, yeah. This only seems normal because we accepted the last overly-intrusive measure.
steelstraw 5y ago
Always under some Orwellian title like "American Rescue Plan".
- loeg 5y ago
  The top-level aims of the American Rescue Plan were actually really good; not "Orwellian." https://ballotpedia.org/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021 https://ballotpedia.org/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021
- brewtide 5y ago
  "Patriot Act" springs to mind as well.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
It was my theory why Trump won. Sure some of his people are racists but I knew a ton of independents who voted for him because they thought he might shake it up a bit in Washington in a populist way. I tried to convince them otherwise, but he certainly did shake things up, as in the foundations of democracy.

> This is why people fucking hate congress. Wholeheartedly agree. And to go one step further: how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? Representative democracy is utterly broken.

vkou 5y ago
> Representative democracy is utterly broken. It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. You are right on one count, though, there are a lot of broken aspects to this particular flavor of representative democracy. It's the sort of thing that happens when you keep version 1 running in production for 250 years, with limited ability to patch it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. I disagree. There are places where direct democracy works quite well and has for a very long time. The US certainly isn't one of them.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Such as? The only example I can think of where this works is trade unions, who have a rather limited mandate.
  - brg 5y ago
    There is only one direct democracy in the world, and it is Switzerland. What are other examples?
- landemva 5y ago
  Are you thinking USA is running version one? The patching process is called amendments. 17th put lobbyists in control. https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/SeventeenthAmendment.htm https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/...
- tacocataco 5y ago
  > It's the worst form of government, except all the others that have ever been tried. So we should just try new ones then?
HWR_14 5y ago
> how many percent Americans would have voted yes to something like this if they had been asked directly? That seems an unfair burden. Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill. I like clean water, for instance, but my opinion on what that means isn't well developed enough to vote on laws on exactly what should be permitted.
- twofornone 5y ago
  >Many laws cover complex matters and the average American cannot be expected to know the pros and cons of every bill Our lawmakers aren't exactly subject matter experts either. And their SMEs are probably often just lobbyists.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    This is a fair complaint, and I would welcome a better way for the lawmakers to obtain SME input.
- andreasley 5y ago
  Describing the right to influence legislation as a burden seems exceptionally strange to me. Maybe that's because I've always lived in a direct democracy where it's commonplace to propose or challenge new laws, and while engaging in that process does require a few hours every now and then, I've always felt that's more than worth it.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I'm not saying that the right to influence legislation is a burden. I'm saying, asking, poll-style, how many Americans would vote for X without any education or informed debate is a bad argument. By all means, I very much support citizen led initiatives (and there have been some excellent ones), but not out of the blue as an after the fact evaluation of a law.

BurningFrog 5y ago

The trend toward passing one 3000 page bill a year that no one knows what it contains isn't awesome.

asdff 5y ago
Pork isn't a new concept in politics.
hunterb123 5y ago
It was known and it was a big issue among Republicans. I don't know why the left supported it or didn't know about it. edit: it seems many people truly didn't know about this. It was widely reported in right-leaning news before the American Rescue Bill passed.

HWR_14 5y ago

Why is paperwork optimization an issue for you? Tax cheats literally are stealing from the government, which increases the debt or taxes the rest of us have to pay. The only issue I have is that the IRS cannot send me a draft tax return I can accept or reject based on all the data they collect.

jksmith 5y ago
Feel free to comply if you like. If you don't like, there are more optimal places to live than the US. Just have to deal with that nasty US tax issue. Becoming an Eritrean citizen won't help.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  If people want to give up US citizenship and move away, fine by me. I don't particularly think that automated record keeping is significant enough (or even a negative) to drive you to leave the country.
dylan604 5y ago
People using loopholes because they have enough money to pay shit tons of money just to lower their tax liability to the point they pay less taxes than someone reading this post is total bullshit as well.

ejstronge 5y ago

This $600 threshold corresponds to the point where a business would have to issue a 1099 to a contractor. It makes sense to have this sort of symmetry - is there a reason you think paying using an app should have different reporting thresholds than using other payment options?

OminousWeapons 5y ago
Well you can wire up to 10K without an SAR being sent to the government, so perhaps that should be the number instead?
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  Don't worry, the SAR limit will be lowered to $600 to correspond with everything else.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
CamperBob2 5y ago
Hi, I'm from Merriam-Webster. We need to add "Overton Window" to the 2023 edition. OK if we cite your post, not just as an example, but as the literal definition?
- ejstronge 5y ago
  I’m not sure why you cite an Overton Window - this literally only relates to business payments, just like the 1099 threshold.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    When the $600 limit was introduced, some of us objected. We were told it was "just for businesses and contractors," and furthermore that "The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy." So, yeah. This only seems normal because we accepted the last overly-intrusive measure.

steelstraw 5y ago

Always under some Orwellian title like "American Rescue Plan".

loeg 5y ago
The top-level aims of the American Rescue Plan were actually really good; not "Orwellian." https://ballotpedia.org/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021 https://ballotpedia.org/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021
brewtide 5y ago
"Patriot Act" springs to mind as well.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

It was my theory why Trump won. Sure some of his people are racists but I knew a ton of independents who voted for him because they thought he might shake it up a bit in Washington in a populist way. I tried to convince them otherwise, but he certainly did shake things up, as in the foundations of democracy.