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> Worse, the blockchain does not, apparently, contain the hash of the data. It very often does, and it is certainly the case for most high-value NFTs. It is in

> Worse, the blockchain does not, apparently, contain the hash of the data. It very often does, and it is certainly the case for most high-value NFTs. It is indeed not the case if you create your NFT on OpenSea and do not take the additional step of freezing the metadata. Also, there are many artworks that change, so a hash to a single file is not necessarily the right solution.

majormajor 5y ago
So if you purchase an NFT, you need to make a local copy of the actual data? Since the blockchain only has the hash? And if whatever server you originally got the data from the NFT for went down, you'd lose it if you didn't make a backup? In those cases does the blockchain still have the URL as well? And you might end up with a collection of bits that matched the hash in the blockchain but was no longer at the original URL? What's the next step then? (The "artwork may change" bit seems like it becomes even more weird and potentially nightmarish edge-case/potentially-losing-your-purchase-wise.)
- hooande 5y ago
  the data has no value. anyone can right click copy an image. the value is that you own the blockchain address that points to a url. picture of a house = no value. deed to the house = value. even if the house is destroyed (data changed), the deed still has some kind of value
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - imnotlost 5y ago
    The land is still there - that's the value. With an NFT, the image is gone and what's left? Some bits on the blockchain.
  - yed 5y ago
    A deed is to land, the land still exists if the house is gone. Your example is more like owning a title to a car that's been shot into the sun. It has 0 value.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - majormajor 5y ago
    A URL pointing to nothing with no way to view the art that supposedly lives there anymore? I don't think that "deed" is gonna be worth much for long. Sounds like it has the same value as saying "I used to own this one famous painting before it burned down in a fire." A hash corresponding to the bits in your file? Sure, that works, you can say "yep, this is the image, I own it." A URL plus a hash + the bits. Sure, that makes sense, even if the URL goes away, you can prove that those particular bits belong to you. A URL that's now dead and nothing else? Nah.
    - Anon1096 5y ago
      Many NFTs are hosted on IPFS. If someone hosting it pulls the image, you can just start hosting it yourself instead, and since IPFS urls are based on the hash, it will never be "lost" so long as at least 1 person still has the content pointed to by the NFT.
      - Animats 5y ago
        IPFS isn't magic. Someone has to store it. IPFS is basically Bittorrent plus a financing system. Arweave charges US$5/gigabyte for permanent storage on IPFS. This is supposed to be forever, funded by investing the money and speculating in the declining future price of storage. You can supposedly put academic papers on Arweave's version of IPFS.[1] But if you try "Browse", nothing appears. This acts like another one of those distributed systems that isn't. [1] https://ss6puabcq3ch.arweave.net/5Yeg3wT4COQL6Bz-tdp9xlmeiwgcOO8NupjpEUDXZ5Y/index.html https://ss6puabcq3ch.arweave.net/5Yeg3wT4COQL6Bz-tdp9xlmeiwg...
        magicjosh 5y ago
        I haven't heard of Arweave before, but yes, the [1] link above doesn't show any results either in the "Browse" or "Search" mode. The premise sounds interesting though. Is this a bug of some sort or does someone with more info know what's up?
        Animats 5y ago
- pshc 5y ago
  > So if you purchase an NFT, you need to make a local copy of the actual data? If you purchase one that’s worth say >4 figures then, yes, yes you should! Also at that point, you’re either part of the 1% or at the very least owe some due diligence to your investments. In reality, the internet is a big copy machine and you’re probably safe. But you should still back it up.
2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
So if I own an NFT and make sure to store the hash, does that mean I also own all collisions?
- phire 5y ago
  You don't even own the hash. You just own a database entry pointing at the hash. There is no mechanism on the Blockchain preventing someone else creating a new NFT with the exact same hash.
  - mac-chaffee 5y ago
    I'd argue you don't even own the database entry. You own _a private key for a wallet that appears in_ the database entry for the hash of the image. But to truly _own_ something, all the cryptographic guarantees in the world won't change the fact that true ownership can only be enforced through violence. And if your private key can be stolen by hackers in countries without extradition treaties, one could argue that anything digital is only "owned" in the absolute weakest sense of the word: no one has tried disputing it yet.
  - solarmist 5y ago
    What about the same url? Or one with query parameter adds? What's to prevent another NFT from pointing to the same data and copying the hash?
    - phire 5y ago
      The centralised marketplaces themselves (like OpenSea) are able to and might try to police duplicate NFTs, or other counterfeit near-matches. I'm not actually sure if they actually do. But on the blockchain itself, the NFT is just a smart contract (bit of code, bit of data) that knows it's current owner, it's name and a URI pointing at the image. There zero mechanism preventing duplicates. Hell, it's such an unregulated market that the NFT might be based on a custom smart contract with a backdoor that allows the creator to steal it back at any time.

majormajor 5y ago

So if you purchase an NFT, you need to make a local copy of the actual data? Since the blockchain only has the hash? And if whatever server you originally got the data from the NFT for went down, you'd lose it if you didn't make a backup? In those cases does the blockchain still have the URL as well? And you might end up with a collection of bits that matched the hash in the blockchain but was no longer at the original URL? What's the next step then? (The "artwork may change" bit seems like it becomes even more weird and potentially nightmarish edge-case/potentially-losing-your-purchase-wise.)

hooande 5y ago
the data has no value. anyone can right click copy an image. the value is that you own the blockchain address that points to a url. picture of a house = no value. deed to the house = value. even if the house is destroyed (data changed), the deed still has some kind of value
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- imnotlost 5y ago
  The land is still there - that's the value. With an NFT, the image is gone and what's left? Some bits on the blockchain.
- yed 5y ago
  A deed is to land, the land still exists if the house is gone. Your example is more like owning a title to a car that's been shot into the sun. It has 0 value.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- majormajor 5y ago
  A URL pointing to nothing with no way to view the art that supposedly lives there anymore? I don't think that "deed" is gonna be worth much for long. Sounds like it has the same value as saying "I used to own this one famous painting before it burned down in a fire." A hash corresponding to the bits in your file? Sure, that works, you can say "yep, this is the image, I own it." A URL plus a hash + the bits. Sure, that makes sense, even if the URL goes away, you can prove that those particular bits belong to you. A URL that's now dead and nothing else? Nah.
  - Anon1096 5y ago
    Many NFTs are hosted on IPFS. If someone hosting it pulls the image, you can just start hosting it yourself instead, and since IPFS urls are based on the hash, it will never be "lost" so long as at least 1 person still has the content pointed to by the NFT.
    - Animats 5y ago
      IPFS isn't magic. Someone has to store it. IPFS is basically Bittorrent plus a financing system. Arweave charges US$5/gigabyte for permanent storage on IPFS. This is supposed to be forever, funded by investing the money and speculating in the declining future price of storage. You can supposedly put academic papers on Arweave's version of IPFS.[1] But if you try "Browse", nothing appears. This acts like another one of those distributed systems that isn't. [1] https://ss6puabcq3ch.arweave.net/5Yeg3wT4COQL6Bz-tdp9xlmeiwgcOO8NupjpEUDXZ5Y/index.html https://ss6puabcq3ch.arweave.net/5Yeg3wT4COQL6Bz-tdp9xlmeiwg...
      - magicjosh 5y ago
        I haven't heard of Arweave before, but yes, the [1] link above doesn't show any results either in the "Browse" or "Search" mode. The premise sounds interesting though. Is this a bug of some sort or does someone with more info know what's up?
        Animats 5y ago
pshc 5y ago
> So if you purchase an NFT, you need to make a local copy of the actual data? If you purchase one that’s worth say >4 figures then, yes, yes you should! Also at that point, you’re either part of the 1% or at the very least owe some due diligence to your investments. In reality, the internet is a big copy machine and you’re probably safe. But you should still back it up.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago

So if I own an NFT and make sure to store the hash, does that mean I also own all collisions?

phire 5y ago
You don't even own the hash. You just own a database entry pointing at the hash. There is no mechanism on the Blockchain preventing someone else creating a new NFT with the exact same hash.
- mac-chaffee 5y ago
  I'd argue you don't even own the database entry. You own _a private key for a wallet that appears in_ the database entry for the hash of the image. But to truly _own_ something, all the cryptographic guarantees in the world won't change the fact that true ownership can only be enforced through violence. And if your private key can be stolen by hackers in countries without extradition treaties, one could argue that anything digital is only "owned" in the absolute weakest sense of the word: no one has tried disputing it yet.
- solarmist 5y ago
  What about the same url? Or one with query parameter adds? What's to prevent another NFT from pointing to the same data and copying the hash?
  - phire 5y ago
    The centralised marketplaces themselves (like OpenSea) are able to and might try to police duplicate NFTs, or other counterfeit near-matches. I'm not actually sure if they actually do. But on the blockchain itself, the NFT is just a smart contract (bit of code, bit of data) that knows it's current owner, it's name and a URI pointing at the image. There zero mechanism preventing duplicates. Hell, it's such an unregulated market that the NFT might be based on a custom smart contract with a backdoor that allows the creator to steal it back at any time.