4 ms·

>to which we, through representatives acting on our behalf, have agreed I've never voted for a representative who was in agreement with taxation, and I've neve

>to which we, through representatives acting on our behalf, have agreed I've never voted for a representative who was in agreement with taxation, and I've never agreed to be taxed. If you want to elect to do that voluntarily I have no problem with you doing that. I never even agreed that US government is legitimate. So nah, I don't agree. >We get a lot more done when we as a society (if not necessarily individually) agree to what outcomes we want and what the rules are, and are forced by law to contribute to make it happen. I don't take this to be fact. Government monopolies tend to be inefficient and free-rider problem can be rampant. > has to contribute their fair share to a common cause we think is just. If something is just and you want to pay for it there's nothing stopping you. Not a big fan of men with guns saying I have to pay to bomb brown in the middle east or fund nun-raping insurgents in Central America. I have looked into waiving my social security rights for instance, but that requires you to file a form 4029 and be part of a religious organization that has been around since about 1960. As an atheist I'm unable to file these forms to waive my rights. I would happily do so if the law is updated. >Seriously, there's a huge difference between an individual robbing someone of something that's rightfully theirs by law So which is better, taxing someone to bomb brown people in the middle east, or robbing a guy in a suit and feeding starving children in Africa? To me they're both bad but the robber sounds slighlty better if not because less people are killed with the ill-gotten gains. So yeah there is a difference, I think the child-feeding robber is better than the tax-man.

otterley 5y ago
> I never even agreed that US government is legitimate. Please, use this line if you ever end up defending yourself in court! I will bring the popcorn. Sorry, but you don't get to opt out of democracy because you don't like the tenet that binds everyone to the laws made by our representatives. If you want to change the system, vote for someone who is aligned with your selfish views; but don't expect most civilized, equity-minded people to agree with you. Or if you really don't like it, there are probably other countries that would welcome you. (To be clear, I also don't agree with many of our Government's policies and actions. There's probably not a single person in our country who agrees with everything our Government does, but disagreement combined with tolerance of imperfection is the price we pay for a system that's proved to be better than all the alternatives we've tried so far. But there's a big difference between trying to influence what we do within our Constitution, and complaining that modern society interferes with my rights to live at maximum individual efficiency -- everyone else be damned -- and that we should all just look out for ourselves.)
- notch656a 5y ago
  >Please, use this line if you ever end up defending yourself in court! I will bring the popcorn. At least now we understand you take joy in suffering of others. >don't expect most civilized, equity-minded people to agree with you You say that what they vote for represents them. If what represents them is bombing little Afghani kids or staging coup in central and south America (and by your statements, it does), I have no desire to be in agreement with such savages. >Sorry, but you don't get to opt out of democracy because you don't like the tenet that binds everyone to the laws made by our representatives. So your response is basically, fuck you do what I say and follow my political system, leave, or get gunned down by government agents if you resist inevitably being ordered to court. You sound like the selfish, others be damned one not I. Wow, how "fair" that sounds on a thread that was originally concerning fairness. >and that we should all just look out for ourselves This is a presumptuous and arrogant statement that ignores the charitable and personal contributions I've (and others) made to others without taxation. You think I haven't looked out for others with contributions performed outside of government? Not everyone is so selfish as you may be that they wouldn't help others if not forced at gunpoint. >there are probably other countries that would welcome you. Except I would still have to file US taxes and report bank accounts unless I renounce US citizenship, but that cost thousands and has to be done abroad. Even if you leave the US, you can't escape the coercion of US government nor US taxes (either at least filing, or paying the ~$2000 "exit tax" of renouncing). FATCA mean merely having US place of birth many worldwide banks are afraid to take me, US citizen or not.
  - otterley 5y ago
    > So your response is basically ... follow my political system, leave, or get gunned down by government agents if you resist inevitably being ordered to court. Well, if you don't do these things, you are a criminal. That's pretty much the textbook definition. > Wow, how "fair" that sounds on a thread that was originally concerning fairness. You have a strange conception of fairness. Fairness doesn't mean you get to do what you want regardless of what the law says. Fairness is about having rules apply uniformly to everyone. Some, including me, also believe it means having a level playing field for competition (again, subject to boundaries to protect fairness), where new entrants aren't privileged because of who their parents were and all that entails. (This latter goal is nowhere near achieved yet, and I fully admit I'm a beneficiary of this privilege, as are all American citizens to some extent.) > This is a presumptuous and arrogant statement that ignores the charitable and personal contributions I've (and others) made to others without taxation. Good for you. I bet you have a Black friend, too. > Except I would still have to file US taxes and report bank accounts unless I renounce US citizenship, but that cost thousands and has to be done abroad. Time to get started! It sounds like it should be worth it to you.

otterley 5y ago

> I never even agreed that US government is legitimate. Please, use this line if you ever end up defending yourself in court! I will bring the popcorn. Sorry, but you don't get to opt out of democracy because you don't like the tenet that binds everyone to the laws made by our representatives. If you want to change the system, vote for someone who is aligned with your selfish views; but don't expect most civilized, equity-minded people to agree with you. Or if you really don't like it, there are probably other countries that would welcome you. (To be clear, I also don't agree with many of our Government's policies and actions. There's probably not a single person in our country who agrees with everything our Government does, but disagreement combined with tolerance of imperfection is the price we pay for a system that's proved to be better than all the alternatives we've tried so far. But there's a big difference between trying to influence what we do within our Constitution, and complaining that modern society interferes with my rights to live at maximum individual efficiency -- everyone else be damned -- and that we should all just look out for ourselves.)

notch656a 5y ago
>Please, use this line if you ever end up defending yourself in court! I will bring the popcorn. At least now we understand you take joy in suffering of others. >don't expect most civilized, equity-minded people to agree with you You say that what they vote for represents them. If what represents them is bombing little Afghani kids or staging coup in central and south America (and by your statements, it does), I have no desire to be in agreement with such savages. >Sorry, but you don't get to opt out of democracy because you don't like the tenet that binds everyone to the laws made by our representatives. So your response is basically, fuck you do what I say and follow my political system, leave, or get gunned down by government agents if you resist inevitably being ordered to court. You sound like the selfish, others be damned one not I. Wow, how "fair" that sounds on a thread that was originally concerning fairness. >and that we should all just look out for ourselves This is a presumptuous and arrogant statement that ignores the charitable and personal contributions I've (and others) made to others without taxation. You think I haven't looked out for others with contributions performed outside of government? Not everyone is so selfish as you may be that they wouldn't help others if not forced at gunpoint. >there are probably other countries that would welcome you. Except I would still have to file US taxes and report bank accounts unless I renounce US citizenship, but that cost thousands and has to be done abroad. Even if you leave the US, you can't escape the coercion of US government nor US taxes (either at least filing, or paying the ~$2000 "exit tax" of renouncing). FATCA mean merely having US place of birth many worldwide banks are afraid to take me, US citizen or not.
- otterley 5y ago
  > So your response is basically ... follow my political system, leave, or get gunned down by government agents if you resist inevitably being ordered to court. Well, if you don't do these things, you are a criminal. That's pretty much the textbook definition. > Wow, how "fair" that sounds on a thread that was originally concerning fairness. You have a strange conception of fairness. Fairness doesn't mean you get to do what you want regardless of what the law says. Fairness is about having rules apply uniformly to everyone. Some, including me, also believe it means having a level playing field for competition (again, subject to boundaries to protect fairness), where new entrants aren't privileged because of who their parents were and all that entails. (This latter goal is nowhere near achieved yet, and I fully admit I'm a beneficiary of this privilege, as are all American citizens to some extent.) > This is a presumptuous and arrogant statement that ignores the charitable and personal contributions I've (and others) made to others without taxation. Good for you. I bet you have a Black friend, too. > Except I would still have to file US taxes and report bank accounts unless I renounce US citizenship, but that cost thousands and has to be done abroad. Time to get started! It sounds like it should be worth it to you.