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What about proof of stake chains, do you reject those too? How many companies with huge carbon footprint do you reject? What about cows did you reject them?

by dylkil 5y ago

not2b 5y ago
In my view it is only proof-of-work systems that must be rejected. Alternatives that are less harmful are possible. Pretty much everything that has a large carbon footprint is going to have to be fixed to reduce that footprint, including web3.
- dylkil 5y ago
  the public dismay at the carbon footprint of crypto is always fascinating to me. The network rewards are setup in such a way the the most profitable miners are the ones with the cheapest electricity as this is their biggest overhead. This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Renewables aren't the cheapest form of electricity. It is when you get it (a) for free by stealing it or (b) from countries that have lax regulations. And in both cases this is the dirtiest fossil fuels not renewables.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables I would love for this to be true (and that's why I used to believe it). But there are two problems with this: • Renewables aren't the cheapest form of electricity; low-value (dirty-burning) or subsidised fossil fuels are cheaper in many places. You've heard of people buying and re-commissioning old coal power stations for crypto mining, I'm sure? • Using any grid electricity drives up the price of other electricity, by market forces. The effect is local, but when cryptomining is happening globally, that's a global effect. That means that otherwise-infeasible inefficient (and polluting) electricity generation is now viable. Greenest ≠ cheapest. If this were a universal truth, we wouldn't have a climate problem in the first place.
  - shagie 5y ago
    > This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables If renewables are the cheapest forms of energy, why did the hash rate drop when Kazakhstan went off line? Based on https://www.iea.org/reports/kazakhstan-energy-profile https://www.iea.org/reports/kazakhstan-energy-profile > Coal represents around half of Kazakhstan’s energy mix (50% in 2018), followed by oil and natural gas (both with 25% shares). This means that the cheapest energy to be found for is 100% carbon based and non-renewable. Likewise, another 5-10% ( https://www.yahoo.com/now/iran-temporarily-stops-authorized-crypto-160216222.html https://www.yahoo.com/now/iran-temporarily-stops-authorized-... ) is from Iran - which again is using oil, and natural gas rather than renewable sources. From https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/electricity_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/electricity_prices/ - the countries with the cheapest energy prices (and show up in the hash rates) are those that are using fossil fuels (and likely trying to subsidize those prices from the government to avoid civil unrest).
timeon 5y ago
> What about ... really?
- dylkil 5y ago
  Yes really, if you don't have conviction you are just virtue signalling. I want to see which it is.
endisneigh 5y ago
> What about proof of stake chains, do you reject those too? Proof of stake still use more electricity per KB transferred than the status quo. > What about cows did you reject them? Not sure how this is relevant to internet? Can cows run websites?

What about proof of stake chains, do you reject those too? How many companies with huge carbon footprint do you reject? What about cows did you reject them?

by dylkil 5y ago

What about proof of stake chains, do you reject those too? How many companies with huge carbon footprint do you reject? What about cows did you reject them?

not2b 5y ago

In my view it is only proof-of-work systems that must be rejected. Alternatives that are less harmful are possible. Pretty much everything that has a large carbon footprint is going to have to be fixed to reduce that footprint, including web3.

dylkil 5y ago
the public dismay at the carbon footprint of crypto is always fascinating to me. The network rewards are setup in such a way the the most profitable miners are the ones with the cheapest electricity as this is their biggest overhead. This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables
- threeseed 5y ago
  Renewables aren't the cheapest form of electricity. It is when you get it (a) for free by stealing it or (b) from countries that have lax regulations. And in both cases this is the dirtiest fossil fuels not renewables.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables I would love for this to be true (and that's why I used to believe it). But there are two problems with this: • Renewables aren't the cheapest form of electricity; low-value (dirty-burning) or subsidised fossil fuels are cheaper in many places. You've heard of people buying and re-commissioning old coal power stations for crypto mining, I'm sure? • Using any grid electricity drives up the price of other electricity, by market forces. The effect is local, but when cryptomining is happening globally, that's a global effect. That means that otherwise-infeasible inefficient (and polluting) electricity generation is now viable. Greenest ≠ cheapest. If this were a universal truth, we wouldn't have a climate problem in the first place.
- shagie 5y ago
  > This pushes miners to the cheapest forms of electricity, i.e renewables If renewables are the cheapest forms of energy, why did the hash rate drop when Kazakhstan went off line? Based on https://www.iea.org/reports/kazakhstan-energy-profile https://www.iea.org/reports/kazakhstan-energy-profile > Coal represents around half of Kazakhstan’s energy mix (50% in 2018), followed by oil and natural gas (both with 25% shares). This means that the cheapest energy to be found for is 100% carbon based and non-renewable. Likewise, another 5-10% ( https://www.yahoo.com/now/iran-temporarily-stops-authorized-crypto-160216222.html https://www.yahoo.com/now/iran-temporarily-stops-authorized-... ) is from Iran - which again is using oil, and natural gas rather than renewable sources. From https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/electricity_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/electricity_prices/ - the countries with the cheapest energy prices (and show up in the hash rates) are those that are using fossil fuels (and likely trying to subsidize those prices from the government to avoid civil unrest).

timeon 5y ago

> What about ... really?

dylkil 5y ago
Yes really, if you don't have conviction you are just virtue signalling. I want to see which it is.

endisneigh 5y ago

> What about proof of stake chains, do you reject those too? Proof of stake still use more electricity per KB transferred than the status quo. > What about cows did you reject them? Not sure how this is relevant to internet? Can cows run websites?