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I am confused here. There were issues with the previously submitted mRNA vaccines created pre covid. Of the 8 I could find all were rejected. Doing a process

I am confused here. There were issues with the previously submitted mRNA vaccines created pre covid. Of the 8 I could find all were rejected. Doing a process that does not work in parallel will not suddenly fix it.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Well, let's say you're exploring a cave with six entrances. If it's any old cave, you might just explore one at a time. If you're pretty sure the Holy Grail is somewhere in it, you might hire six explorers, at higher initial expense.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Moderna was founded precisely to find the Holy Grail. Making a breakthrough in a matter of weeks that couldn't be found for 8 years is incredibly hard to believe no matter how much additional money is thrown at the problem.
  - allturtles 5y ago
    So if they didn't make the breakthrough in weeks, what do you think happened? They already had a secret COVID vaccine for years? The trials were faked and all the post-trial evidence about vaccine efficacy is also faked?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > So if they didn't make the breakthrough in weeks, what do you think happened? The expected vaccine sales were high enough to justify spending resources initiating developement on lots of candidate mRNA vaccines in parallel, and spending the money testing more of the potentially viable ones at a time than would otherwise have been the case. When you throw a lot more against the wall, you find something that sticks a lot faster.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    "Matter of weeks" or "they've been working on the tech for eight years". Pick one. You can't have both.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      No, I can have both. For 8 years, they've tried a bunch of different things that they thought would work. Literally none of them did. And then in a matter of weeks, they figured the whole thing out. Obviously they didn't start from zero. But it wasn't like they had something from, say, 2018 that was looking promising but just hadn't made it all the way through trials yet. They had nothing but failures.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        They spent eight years iterating their technology. The idea that they had nothing but already-failed candidates at the start of the pandemic is simply false. Their 10-K from the end of 2019: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220000006/moderna10-k12312019.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220... > We have a diverse pipeline of 24 development candidates, 12 of which are currently in clinical trials, and many of which have the potential to be first-in-class or best-in-class medicines. All of this is a bit academic, anyways. We've plenty of evidence the Moderna vaccine works. You can quibble over the exact rate of rare side effects a little, but it's abundantly clear it's good at reducing deaths and severe disease in the vaccinated population.
        newrotik 5y ago
        Moderna use has been suspended for individuals <30y in several Scandinavian countries due to its side effects. The point discussed is not whether it works or not, but what are the actual safety parameters.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        No, they're saying "Making a breakthrough in a matter of weeks that couldn't be found for 8 years is incredibly hard to believe". That's not a "Pfizer's is slightly safer in 30+ males and should be used preferentially in that population if both are available" safety quibble.
mike00632 5y ago
Wait, what were the issues with the mRNA vaccines? If you are accusing the mRNA vaccines of having "issues" then it's important you provide details and a citation
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Moderna had some pre-COVID mRNA clinical trials that failed for various reasons. (As is, to say the least, common in the pharmaceutical industry.) https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ > But the Crigler-Najjar treatment has been indefinitely delayed, an Alexion spokeswoman told STAT. It never proved safe enough to test in humans, according to several former Moderna employees and collaborators who worked closely on the project. Unable to press forward with that technology, Moderna has had to focus instead on developing a handful of vaccines, turning to a less lucrative field that might not justify the company’s nearly $5 billion valuation. Of course, as the apocryphal Edison quote goes, "I haven't failed, I've found 10,000 ways that don't work."

ceejayoz 5y ago

Well, let's say you're exploring a cave with six entrances. If it's any old cave, you might just explore one at a time. If you're pretty sure the Holy Grail is somewhere in it, you might hire six explorers, at higher initial expense.

jaywalk 5y ago
Moderna was founded precisely to find the Holy Grail. Making a breakthrough in a matter of weeks that couldn't be found for 8 years is incredibly hard to believe no matter how much additional money is thrown at the problem.
- allturtles 5y ago
  So if they didn't make the breakthrough in weeks, what do you think happened? They already had a secret COVID vaccine for years? The trials were faked and all the post-trial evidence about vaccine efficacy is also faked?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > So if they didn't make the breakthrough in weeks, what do you think happened? The expected vaccine sales were high enough to justify spending resources initiating developement on lots of candidate mRNA vaccines in parallel, and spending the money testing more of the potentially viable ones at a time than would otherwise have been the case. When you throw a lot more against the wall, you find something that sticks a lot faster.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  "Matter of weeks" or "they've been working on the tech for eight years". Pick one. You can't have both.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    No, I can have both. For 8 years, they've tried a bunch of different things that they thought would work. Literally none of them did. And then in a matter of weeks, they figured the whole thing out. Obviously they didn't start from zero. But it wasn't like they had something from, say, 2018 that was looking promising but just hadn't made it all the way through trials yet. They had nothing but failures.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      They spent eight years iterating their technology. The idea that they had nothing but already-failed candidates at the start of the pandemic is simply false. Their 10-K from the end of 2019: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220000006/moderna10-k12312019.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220... > We have a diverse pipeline of 24 development candidates, 12 of which are currently in clinical trials, and many of which have the potential to be first-in-class or best-in-class medicines. All of this is a bit academic, anyways. We've plenty of evidence the Moderna vaccine works. You can quibble over the exact rate of rare side effects a little, but it's abundantly clear it's good at reducing deaths and severe disease in the vaccinated population.
      - newrotik 5y ago
        Moderna use has been suspended for individuals <30y in several Scandinavian countries due to its side effects. The point discussed is not whether it works or not, but what are the actual safety parameters.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        No, they're saying "Making a breakthrough in a matter of weeks that couldn't be found for 8 years is incredibly hard to believe". That's not a "Pfizer's is slightly safer in 30+ males and should be used preferentially in that population if both are available" safety quibble.

mike00632 5y ago

Wait, what were the issues with the mRNA vaccines? If you are accusing the mRNA vaccines of having "issues" then it's important you provide details and a citation

ceejayoz 5y ago
Moderna had some pre-COVID mRNA clinical trials that failed for various reasons. (As is, to say the least, common in the pharmaceutical industry.) https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ > But the Crigler-Najjar treatment has been indefinitely delayed, an Alexion spokeswoman told STAT. It never proved safe enough to test in humans, according to several former Moderna employees and collaborators who worked closely on the project. Unable to press forward with that technology, Moderna has had to focus instead on developing a handful of vaccines, turning to a less lucrative field that might not justify the company’s nearly $5 billion valuation. Of course, as the apocryphal Edison quote goes, "I haven't failed, I've found 10,000 ways that don't work."