5 ms·

I highly doubt its actually about safety and more about just making jobs.

by NikolaeVarius 5y ago

jkepler 5y ago
I grew up there, and always heard that full-serve only was about jobs.
- astura 5y ago
  Nowadays it's probably 44% jobs, 44% people simply like the service and 2% safety.
awb 5y ago
Probably 95% jobs, 5% safety. https://jwkblog.com/wordpress/fire-at-gas-stations-some-facts-some-statistics-and-some-prevention-tips/ https://jwkblog.com/wordpress/fire-at-gas-stations-some-fact... 5k fires/year, 61% involving vehicles so about 3k fires/year, presumably from pumping gas. But given how many billions (or maybe even trillions) of customer-pump interactions per year that’s a really low incident rate. It would be interesting to see if NJ and OR with no self-serve have dramatically lower rates but I couldn’t find that info.
- hammock 5y ago
  5k fires/year may not seem like much compared to the billions of non-incident pumps, but what about our limited municipal firefighting capacity? Wouldn't gas pump fires contribute to their being overloaded, unnecessarily, when all is required is a simple rule that hurts no one?
  - dijonman2 5y ago
    Gas stations have built in fire suppression. It’s a stretch to link this to firefighting capacity. Nanny states are annoying.
    - hammock 5y ago
      In cases when a gas station's fire suppression is triggered, in how many cases does the fire department never come out? I would estimate that they come out every time anyway.
    - awb 5y ago
      From the article gas station fires cause $20M in damage annually. Not to mention toxic fumes. Even with suppression someone has to intervene to reduce it from suppressed to extinguished, and that’s usually the fire department. The numbers are very small, but it’s not nothing. The key point though would be seeing if these risks are far lower in OR and NJ, or not. Edit: $20M, not $20B
      - hammock 5y ago
        I would also be interested in a cost-benefit analysis for this intervention (full service pumping) compared to, say, different fire safety protocols, rules that allow only essential gas pumping to be done (like when your tank is below half full), or other approaches. I also wonder if it's OK that we let each state decide for themselves rather than creating a federal mandate with what is judged by leading experts to be the best solution.
      - kens 5y ago
        > From the article gas station fires cause $20B in damage annually. No. That number is wildly wrong.
        awb 5y ago
        Sorry, M instead of B. So yeah, off by 1,000x. Good catch!
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    What limited municipal firefighting capacity? Firefighters hardly fight any (urban) fires these days, because of better building codes and fewer people smoking.
    - hammock 5y ago
      Where do you live? Do your firefighters just sit around taking no calls all day? Where I live (top 5 city in the US, with some of the most restrictive fire building codes) the average firehouse gets 80+ calls a day.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        What percent of those calls are actually necessary calls though? I used to watch a fire truck roll up at least once a week to check up on the same dude napping on the sidewalk. Not to try and say that the majority of their calls are like that, but that does suggest a system with at least some spare capacity.
        hammock 5y ago
        What percent of hospital stays are "actually necessary"? Who do you want to decide that?
        Talanes 5y ago
        >Who do you want to decide that? The hospitals, I guess? I'm making inferences from the judgement-making of...whoever, not second-guessing them. If anything, I'm giving complete faith to the system here. My assumption is if they can send out a full fire-truck to respond to a call where clearly an ambulance would be sufficient, they're not doing it despite there also being a fire that needs response.
      - Zircom 5y ago
        I doubt even 1/4 of those are actual fires, in my town firefighters show up to car crashes and heart attacks and shootings and all sorts of things that aren't on fire.
  - Spare_account 5y ago
    How many fewer incidents does NJ have per non-incident pump, can the other states? How much safer is it in NJ?
    - hammock 5y ago
      If the data showed there was no difference, would you support repealing the pump mandate?
      - Spare_account 5y ago
        I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just interested in the facts. Your phrasing in the comment I initially replied to suggested that you believe the pump mandate reduces the number of fires. If that's the case, it should be demonstrable with data and it should be front and centre in every discussion, surely?
larrybud 5y ago
It’s not about jobs; it’s about entitlement. Some years back our governor at the time tried to change this and the vast vast majority of residents (not me) raised hell. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/nyregion/on-politics-outcry-over-selfserve-gas-has-corzine-in-reverse.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/nyregion/on-politics-outc... Me, I’m too type A and impatient to wait for attendants and I wish we had self serve.

I highly doubt its actually about safety and more about just making jobs.

jkepler 5y ago

I grew up there, and always heard that full-serve only was about jobs.

astura 5y ago
Nowadays it's probably 44% jobs, 44% people simply like the service and 2% safety.

awb 5y ago

Probably 95% jobs, 5% safety. https://jwkblog.com/wordpress/fire-at-gas-stations-some-facts-some-statistics-and-some-prevention-tips/ https://jwkblog.com/wordpress/fire-at-gas-stations-some-fact... 5k fires/year, 61% involving vehicles so about 3k fires/year, presumably from pumping gas. But given how many billions (or maybe even trillions) of customer-pump interactions per year that’s a really low incident rate. It would be interesting to see if NJ and OR with no self-serve have dramatically lower rates but I couldn’t find that info.

hammock 5y ago
5k fires/year may not seem like much compared to the billions of non-incident pumps, but what about our limited municipal firefighting capacity? Wouldn't gas pump fires contribute to their being overloaded, unnecessarily, when all is required is a simple rule that hurts no one?
- dijonman2 5y ago
  Gas stations have built in fire suppression. It’s a stretch to link this to firefighting capacity. Nanny states are annoying.
  - hammock 5y ago
    In cases when a gas station's fire suppression is triggered, in how many cases does the fire department never come out? I would estimate that they come out every time anyway.
  - awb 5y ago
    From the article gas station fires cause $20M in damage annually. Not to mention toxic fumes. Even with suppression someone has to intervene to reduce it from suppressed to extinguished, and that’s usually the fire department. The numbers are very small, but it’s not nothing. The key point though would be seeing if these risks are far lower in OR and NJ, or not. Edit: $20M, not $20B
    - hammock 5y ago
      I would also be interested in a cost-benefit analysis for this intervention (full service pumping) compared to, say, different fire safety protocols, rules that allow only essential gas pumping to be done (like when your tank is below half full), or other approaches. I also wonder if it's OK that we let each state decide for themselves rather than creating a federal mandate with what is judged by leading experts to be the best solution.
    - kens 5y ago
      > From the article gas station fires cause $20B in damage annually. No. That number is wildly wrong.
      - awb 5y ago
        Sorry, M instead of B. So yeah, off by 1,000x. Good catch!
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  What limited municipal firefighting capacity? Firefighters hardly fight any (urban) fires these days, because of better building codes and fewer people smoking.
  - hammock 5y ago
    Where do you live? Do your firefighters just sit around taking no calls all day? Where I live (top 5 city in the US, with some of the most restrictive fire building codes) the average firehouse gets 80+ calls a day.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      What percent of those calls are actually necessary calls though? I used to watch a fire truck roll up at least once a week to check up on the same dude napping on the sidewalk. Not to try and say that the majority of their calls are like that, but that does suggest a system with at least some spare capacity.
      - hammock 5y ago
        What percent of hospital stays are "actually necessary"? Who do you want to decide that?
        Talanes 5y ago
        >Who do you want to decide that? The hospitals, I guess? I'm making inferences from the judgement-making of...whoever, not second-guessing them. If anything, I'm giving complete faith to the system here. My assumption is if they can send out a full fire-truck to respond to a call where clearly an ambulance would be sufficient, they're not doing it despite there also being a fire that needs response.
    - Zircom 5y ago
      I doubt even 1/4 of those are actual fires, in my town firefighters show up to car crashes and heart attacks and shootings and all sorts of things that aren't on fire.
- Spare_account 5y ago
  How many fewer incidents does NJ have per non-incident pump, can the other states? How much safer is it in NJ?
  - hammock 5y ago
    If the data showed there was no difference, would you support repealing the pump mandate?
    - Spare_account 5y ago
      I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just interested in the facts. Your phrasing in the comment I initially replied to suggested that you believe the pump mandate reduces the number of fires. If that's the case, it should be demonstrable with data and it should be front and centre in every discussion, surely?

larrybud 5y ago

It’s not about jobs; it’s about entitlement. Some years back our governor at the time tried to change this and the vast vast majority of residents (not me) raised hell. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/nyregion/on-politics-outcry-over-selfserve-gas-has-corzine-in-reverse.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/nyregion/on-politics-outc... Me, I’m too type A and impatient to wait for attendants and I wish we had self serve.