7 ms·

The Covid-19 Pandemic Has Shown Why We Should Fund Students, Not Systems

33 points by steelstraw 5y ago

DerArzt 5y ago
Did I miss something or did this article never define what it means by: >We Should Fund Students The article bags on public school systems, but I don't see any alternatives being suggested. Overall this looks to be a propaganda article by a libertarian think tank that is all fluff but no substance.
- notch656a 5y ago
  It's all there for you, you were just too lazy to find it Another national survey conducted by Ed Choice found that support for four types of school choice — education savings accounts, tax-credit scholarships, vouchers, and charter schools — all surged between the spring and fall of 2020. The same survey also found that 86 percent of parents with school-aged children now support funding students directly through education savings accounts. Education savings account initiatives would allow families to use a portion of their children’s K-12 education dollars to cover the costs of approved education providers, including private schooling, homeschooling, micro-schooling, pandemic pods, tutoring, and special needs services.
  - DerArzt 5y ago
    I did see that, but I wouldn't call sighting survey results a call to action.
- bsder 5y ago
  This is effectively the usual "Let the charter system cherry-pick the good students and slag everybody else onto the public system." This is "indemnity plan" vs HMO healthcare problem all over again. HMOs look really good while most people are on indemnity plans. The problem is that the more people wind up on HMOs, the more the expensive people wind up on the fewer indemnity plans. Eventually, the indemnity plans collapse and now the HMOs have to deal with everybody. And suddenly everybody is worse off because the HMOs were set up to bleed money out of the system in profit rather than simply cover people's healthcare. The problem is the HN contingent always thinks that they won't be the ones with the child stuck in the public system. And that's probably mostly true--until they have the child with the behavioral problem, the learning disability, or the bad luck to get caught up in a disciplinary mess and now they are barred from these better schools. Then ... EPIPHANY! ... Magically they realize that things are so horribly, terribly unfair.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Ok so eliminate the public system then, if it can't deal appropriately with the rest of the students. We shouldn't pay for a system if it can't educate the students that are there.
    - bsder 5y ago
      "Our mental health institutions aren't working, so let's just close them all!" Shall I point out how well that worked? Scrapping a public system doesn't magically make things better.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        You were the ones alluding they weren't going to work, not I. Saying a child is "stuck" there isn't exactly a glowing review. I just said if they don't work we shouldn't be paying for them.
        bsder 5y ago
        They're "stuck" once the "charter schools" get done sucking up all the "easy to teach" students. This occurs over and over and over. "Hey, this charter school is better than the public school." "Great! Let's randomize students by lottery and send them to charter or public school." "Whoops! The charter school doesn't look so good anymore now that they can't choose their students." Nobody has demonstrated better results than our public system without either filtering students or by spending a lot more money. Which is sad because I do believe that we can do better than the current system. Learning pedagogy is understood MUCH better than it was 100 years ago. However, when you attempt to improve something, look at the backlash that appears (see: Common Core).
        notch656a 5y ago
        >Nobody has demonstrated better results than our public system without either filtering students or by spending a lot more money. Could you produce a citation please? I've been under the impression that several countries are beating US in public education ROI, but since I don't have that source off hand and you've already made the assertion I'll go ahead and let you fill the burden of proof here. Are you basically saying no (similar cost) private school beats the public system because by definition they can pick which student they have so they can't possibly beat a public system without filtering? There has to be some (similar cost) private school out there that could beat the average public school even unfiltered; these seems like a pretty tall claim to make.
legerdemain 5y ago
History has shown that "defined contribution" scales and works, and "defined benefit" bankrupts institutions. Public school systems in the US all currently work on "defined benefit" funding, under which municipalities are held hostage to pay out more and more in tax funds to school districts. This money would be much better off invested, on a per-student basis, in a quality fund and pay out portable dividends that students could then take to any school district. I envision that this would solve a lot of problems that currently plague public education in the US. More desirable school districts could maintain their quality by charging more for instruction, so that only the most motivated students would want to invest their time and funds there. Districts could offer more "electives" like art or music by charging for them a la carte, requiring students to "budget" their education funds wisely. Do I want to get through with minimum fuss by taking only the required courses, or do I want to spend more money on fun, but ultimately unremunerative detours?
etempleton 5y ago
This article blames teachers unions on school closures. I am not pro or against unions. But where I live teachers unions do not have any decision making power. Some leverage? Yes, but only a little and even then only around negotiating basic things like salary. The choice is with the school board and superindent. School districts are staying virtual because they don’t have enough staff. Teachers, yes, but more so support staff—bus drivers, classroom aids, custodians, food services, etc. parents are being told, “sorry there will be no bus today, you will have to drive your kid to school.” Schools are closing because they can’t keep staff and half the students and teachers are sick and virtual anyway. Try teaching 15 8 year olds virtually and 10 more in person at the same time. It doesn’t work. The jobs were not great before and they are awful now. Not a lot of people are excited to become a teacher these days. Now, if you want to talk about school choice, and, in this model I suppose you are given a tax credit, you will create the exact same situation we have in higher education that everyone complains about being too expensive and a scam, and price gouging, etc, etc. because schools will compete to create the biggest and flashiest school to attract the best and brightest, but more importantly richest students. The other schools will be impovershied and facilities will get worse and worse.
- notch656a 5y ago
  If buses aren't running, custodians aren't showing up, and classroom aids aren't there then the system is failing. Time to look into other possibilities.
  - etempleton 5y ago
    Perhaps it is a free market economy issue. These staff members are paid more to work elsewhere under more favorable conditions. The answer then must be to pay more or otherwise make working conditions more tenable. Most bus drivers and support staff are elderly and took these jobs on part time. The calculation might just not be worth it to them anymore.
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      School-based professionals are looking at private schools and realizing they can make top dollar there, compared to the chaos and dysfunction of union-governed public schools. There's no upper limit on how much teachers and other professionals can earn at a private school, unlike public schools.

33 points by steelstraw 5y ago

Did I miss something or did this article never define what it means by: >We Should Fund Students The article bags on public school systems, but I don't see any alternatives being suggested. Overall this looks to be a propaganda article by a libertarian think tank that is all fluff but no substance.

notch656a 5y ago
It's all there for you, you were just too lazy to find it Another national survey conducted by Ed Choice found that support for four types of school choice — education savings accounts, tax-credit scholarships, vouchers, and charter schools — all surged between the spring and fall of 2020. The same survey also found that 86 percent of parents with school-aged children now support funding students directly through education savings accounts. Education savings account initiatives would allow families to use a portion of their children’s K-12 education dollars to cover the costs of approved education providers, including private schooling, homeschooling, micro-schooling, pandemic pods, tutoring, and special needs services.
- DerArzt 5y ago
  I did see that, but I wouldn't call sighting survey results a call to action.
bsder 5y ago
This is effectively the usual "Let the charter system cherry-pick the good students and slag everybody else onto the public system." This is "indemnity plan" vs HMO healthcare problem all over again. HMOs look really good while most people are on indemnity plans. The problem is that the more people wind up on HMOs, the more the expensive people wind up on the fewer indemnity plans. Eventually, the indemnity plans collapse and now the HMOs have to deal with everybody. And suddenly everybody is worse off because the HMOs were set up to bleed money out of the system in profit rather than simply cover people's healthcare. The problem is the HN contingent always thinks that they won't be the ones with the child stuck in the public system. And that's probably mostly true--until they have the child with the behavioral problem, the learning disability, or the bad luck to get caught up in a disciplinary mess and now they are barred from these better schools. Then ... EPIPHANY! ... Magically they realize that things are so horribly, terribly unfair.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Ok so eliminate the public system then, if it can't deal appropriately with the rest of the students. We shouldn't pay for a system if it can't educate the students that are there.
  - bsder 5y ago
    "Our mental health institutions aren't working, so let's just close them all!" Shall I point out how well that worked? Scrapping a public system doesn't magically make things better.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      You were the ones alluding they weren't going to work, not I. Saying a child is "stuck" there isn't exactly a glowing review. I just said if they don't work we shouldn't be paying for them.
      - bsder 5y ago
        They're "stuck" once the "charter schools" get done sucking up all the "easy to teach" students. This occurs over and over and over. "Hey, this charter school is better than the public school." "Great! Let's randomize students by lottery and send them to charter or public school." "Whoops! The charter school doesn't look so good anymore now that they can't choose their students." Nobody has demonstrated better results than our public system without either filtering students or by spending a lot more money. Which is sad because I do believe that we can do better than the current system. Learning pedagogy is understood MUCH better than it was 100 years ago. However, when you attempt to improve something, look at the backlash that appears (see: Common Core).
        notch656a 5y ago
        >Nobody has demonstrated better results than our public system without either filtering students or by spending a lot more money. Could you produce a citation please? I've been under the impression that several countries are beating US in public education ROI, but since I don't have that source off hand and you've already made the assertion I'll go ahead and let you fill the burden of proof here. Are you basically saying no (similar cost) private school beats the public system because by definition they can pick which student they have so they can't possibly beat a public system without filtering? There has to be some (similar cost) private school out there that could beat the average public school even unfiltered; these seems like a pretty tall claim to make.

legerdemain 5y ago

History has shown that "defined contribution" scales and works, and "defined benefit" bankrupts institutions. Public school systems in the US all currently work on "defined benefit" funding, under which municipalities are held hostage to pay out more and more in tax funds to school districts. This money would be much better off invested, on a per-student basis, in a quality fund and pay out portable dividends that students could then take to any school district. I envision that this would solve a lot of problems that currently plague public education in the US. More desirable school districts could maintain their quality by charging more for instruction, so that only the most motivated students would want to invest their time and funds there. Districts could offer more "electives" like art or music by charging for them a la carte, requiring students to "budget" their education funds wisely. Do I want to get through with minimum fuss by taking only the required courses, or do I want to spend more money on fun, but ultimately unremunerative detours?

etempleton 5y ago

This article blames teachers unions on school closures. I am not pro or against unions. But where I live teachers unions do not have any decision making power. Some leverage? Yes, but only a little and even then only around negotiating basic things like salary. The choice is with the school board and superindent. School districts are staying virtual because they don’t have enough staff. Teachers, yes, but more so support staff—bus drivers, classroom aids, custodians, food services, etc. parents are being told, “sorry there will be no bus today, you will have to drive your kid to school.” Schools are closing because they can’t keep staff and half the students and teachers are sick and virtual anyway. Try teaching 15 8 year olds virtually and 10 more in person at the same time. It doesn’t work. The jobs were not great before and they are awful now. Not a lot of people are excited to become a teacher these days. Now, if you want to talk about school choice, and, in this model I suppose you are given a tax credit, you will create the exact same situation we have in higher education that everyone complains about being too expensive and a scam, and price gouging, etc, etc. because schools will compete to create the biggest and flashiest school to attract the best and brightest, but more importantly richest students. The other schools will be impovershied and facilities will get worse and worse.

notch656a 5y ago
If buses aren't running, custodians aren't showing up, and classroom aids aren't there then the system is failing. Time to look into other possibilities.
- etempleton 5y ago
  Perhaps it is a free market economy issue. These staff members are paid more to work elsewhere under more favorable conditions. The answer then must be to pay more or otherwise make working conditions more tenable. Most bus drivers and support staff are elderly and took these jobs on part time. The calculation might just not be worth it to them anymore.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    School-based professionals are looking at private schools and realizing they can make top dollar there, compared to the chaos and dysfunction of union-governed public schools. There's no upper limit on how much teachers and other professionals can earn at a private school, unlike public schools.