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> Complex is better than complicated What? Something being complex is artificial, we try to avoid it. Problems can be complicated, we try to simplify them, and

> Complex is better than complicated What? Something being complex is artificial, we try to avoid it. Problems can be complicated, we try to simplify them, and more complicated the problem is, we tend to develop more complex solutions. So comparing them does not make sense? Or did I always know them wrong?

stonemetal12 5y ago
Complex: consisting of many different and connected parts. Complicated: consisting of many interconnecting parts or elements; intricate. Nothing specifically artificial about either one. Software that is well decomposed is Complex (made of many smaller connected parts). Software that is is poorly decomposed is Complicated (made of many smaller interconnected parts). Connected vs interconnected? Interconnected: connected at multiple points or levels (aka spaghetti code)
- dylan604 5y ago
  Complicated: this mutha is hard all by itself Complex: we took all of these simple steps, lumped them together, now we have this
  - egeozcan 5y ago
    Yeah that was what I was trying to say!
nighthawk454 5y ago
It's not particularly well-worded. A lot of dictionaries list complex/complicated as synonyms. I always took it to mean 'complex' as in having many connected parts, and 'complicated' more as in over-complicated or convoluted - the opposite of 'simple'. In other words, breaking something complicated into a system of intentionally-designed pieces is probably better than a chunk of opaque code to brute-force the current case. A good system is probably also 'simpler', despite having more pieces and interconnects.
hibrass 5y ago
I first encountered the notion of complex/complicated in Antifragile I believe, and IIRC it's based on the [Cynefin framework](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework). My understanding is that: * Complex domains lend themselves to experimentation and emergent behavior. * Complicated domains lend themselves to analysis, expertise, and rule following. The Wikipedia article offers the domains as containing "unknown unknowns" and "known unknowns" respectively. I'm trying to think how this maps to Python -- the language is complicated, while the problems we're solving are expected to be complex? Or, maybe, the language lives at the boundary between complicated and complex. We push complicated procedures into the language, and let the programmers deal with complex issues?

stonemetal12 5y ago

Complex: consisting of many different and connected parts. Complicated: consisting of many interconnecting parts or elements; intricate. Nothing specifically artificial about either one. Software that is well decomposed is Complex (made of many smaller connected parts). Software that is is poorly decomposed is Complicated (made of many smaller interconnected parts). Connected vs interconnected? Interconnected: connected at multiple points or levels (aka spaghetti code)

dylan604 5y ago
Complicated: this mutha is hard all by itself Complex: we took all of these simple steps, lumped them together, now we have this
- egeozcan 5y ago
  Yeah that was what I was trying to say!

nighthawk454 5y ago

It's not particularly well-worded. A lot of dictionaries list complex/complicated as synonyms. I always took it to mean 'complex' as in having many connected parts, and 'complicated' more as in over-complicated or convoluted - the opposite of 'simple'. In other words, breaking something complicated into a system of intentionally-designed pieces is probably better than a chunk of opaque code to brute-force the current case. A good system is probably also 'simpler', despite having more pieces and interconnects.

hibrass 5y ago

I first encountered the notion of complex/complicated in Antifragile I believe, and IIRC it's based on the [Cynefin framework](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework). My understanding is that: * Complex domains lend themselves to experimentation and emergent behavior. * Complicated domains lend themselves to analysis, expertise, and rule following. The Wikipedia article offers the domains as containing "unknown unknowns" and "known unknowns" respectively. I'm trying to think how this maps to Python -- the language is complicated, while the problems we're solving are expected to be complex? Or, maybe, the language lives at the boundary between complicated and complex. We push complicated procedures into the language, and let the programmers deal with complex issues?