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> On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was runni

> On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition’s parliamentary election campaign. How is it not a Watergate? They used Pegasus on the leader of the most important election campaign in the last 7 years in Poland.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
That really depends who "they" are, doesn't it? Spying is usually done on important people, not random nobodies.
- atleta 5y ago
  The article above is about the Polish ruling party. "They" logically means exactly them (the Polish Ruling party and/or the Polish state which, I guess, is mostly controlled by the said party).
RicoElectrico 5y ago
Virtually no officials were dismissed during the rule of PiS after a scandal. Their electorate does not have an issue with that. They are Poland's Trump, but much worse.
- kahrl 5y ago
  > Their electorate does not have an issue with that. How can you place blame on the electorate? People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes.
  - petre 5y ago
    They voted for PiS time and time again. Any party with the words "justice" and "law" in it are probably fascists that would cling to power by any means necessary. Look at Turkey's AKP.
  - RicoElectrico 5y ago
    PiS literally guides its policy after what would be favorable in polls.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    > People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes. Except, you know, if the "right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regime" is democratically elected over and over.
- hammock 5y ago
  What do you believe was better about Trump?
  - scotty79 5y ago
    People around him ignored him as much as possible. In Poland, president, both chambers of the parliament, constitutional court and state prosecutor are all Trumps.
    - garaetjjte 5y ago
      Correction: PiS doesn't currently have majority in the upper house of parliament. (upper house doesn't have much power though)
  - krzyk 5y ago
    He lost elections.
    - dukeofdoom 5y ago
      By at least 81 gazillion mail-in ballots
  - Jorengarenar 5y ago
    Many compared Trump to Hitler. Kaczyński took more lessons from Stalin
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> How is it not a Watergate? There was irrefutable proof that Nixon ordered the break into DNC headquarters and then covered it up. We have proof Brejza was hacked. To become Watergate, we need proof the government ordered it.
- petre 5y ago
  Don't worry, further evidence will appear, but nobody's getting impeached or resigning, because this is Poland in 2022, only 32 years out if communism, not the USA in 1974, a 200 year old well consolidated democracy.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  There isn't really proof Nixon ordered the break in, though that's because he created and funded a group to do such things without his knowledge. They still had strong ties to Nixon and he did attempt to cover-up the break in.
  - ozfive 5y ago
    Downvoted for obfuscating and perpetuating some alternate reality where Nixon was innocent by ignorance. Covering up anything is admittance of guilt.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      He wasn't innocent, I thought my comment made that clear by saying they were paid by him and saying he definitely participated in the failed cover-up that led to his impeachment. He just didn't order the break in. Historical accuracy, not a deflection of guilt.
      - ozfive 5y ago
        Ok thank you for the clarification. Removed down-vote. That guy was slime and should always be remembered as such.
pzduniak 5y ago
How is proving that politicians and their families are stealing millions from the country's budget / EU funds, while denying access to anyone affiliated with the opposition, not "a Watergate"? That's just a normal day for us in Poland. People who vote for Law and Justice do not care the law (which has been already changed to serve their interests) nor the justice (which is also nearly fully controlled by them at this point). As long as it pisses off the other side, it's OK with them. Oh, and the Catholic Church is helping them, because they also get a cut.
- legutierr 5y ago
  > Oh, and the Catholic Church is helping them, because they also get a cut. With the acquiescence of the Pope, or is he turning a blind eye to this?
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Popes don't tend to be sharp sighted individuals as various church scandals indicate.
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      Isn’t it more likely that the popes are plenty sharp and part of the versions scandals?
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Probably not. Ignorance (including willful) is usualy more probable explanation.
  - pzduniak 5y ago
    I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the institution to give a proper response. To me, many of their (Polish Episcopate's) actions are illogical and a net loss to the community they're supposed to foster. I don't think that the Vatican necessarily has that much power over the Polish Episcopate. It seems like they operate as an association of non-profits all across the world and every single organization operates independently, within a rough framework. I live in one of the largest cities, haven't ever really been a church-goer. Going through all the sacraments was just a traditional thing you'd do. A decade ago, I don't remember hearing anything political in my local church. Sure, I heard some pretty obnoxious homophobic stuff, saw "exorcisms", but it was always somewhat neutral. However over the past few years, I've heard a lot of stories about rabid priests demonizing "the other side" (be it the other parties, "the LGBT plague" etc.), saying that the only way towards salvation is voting for PiS. Maybe it was a very vocal minority that was amplified by the media (look, priest X is doing this stuff! how terrible!). Eventually it seemed like that behaviour was normalized and the attitude of the people towards the Church became even more radicalized. Right now, the percentage of people who claim they're religious is plummeting. People who disagree with PiS (and the behaviour of the Church) are pulling their kids from "Religion" / Catechesis lessons, mostly in large cities. In my community, the schools have to group up multiple classes to even have groups of 10. How do you fight it? Well, you give a ton of funding to "patriotic causes", which are primarily promoting Catholicism, militarism / far-right, nationalistic narratives (the government is contributing to this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2XRK_Xb6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2XRK_Xb6g). The trade-off seems to be replacing your average church-goes / people who only go to the church for baptisms / First Communion / marriages, with Polish "patriots" - nationalists full of hatred towards anyone who's not white, religious and preferably voting for the Populist-Nationalists or Conservative-Liberals (who banded up with actual neonazis???). Arguably, I think that financially it could be a net positive for the Episcopate - they're getting public funding (for now) and possibly acquiring new, radicalized, loyal followers. Disclaimer: It probably _is_ a very loud minority. Unfortunately it's also the minority that appears to control the Church leadership. I feel sorry for the legitimately honest and good people I met through the Church, who are now getting grouped up with xenophobes.
a9WA7dLVnwcquge 5y ago
dukeofdoom 5y ago
> How is it not a Watergate? Didn't Trump complain his campaign was spied on too. Deep state will do what it will in every country. Politician change, but lifelong bureaucrats remain. Sometimes its not clear who really runs the show even. You can't assumed based on who is the figurehead on TV.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Trump is not exactly trustworthy narrator about anything. If independent Canadian researcher discovered Trump was spied on I suspect it would be a different story.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

That really depends who "they" are, doesn't it? Spying is usually done on important people, not random nobodies.

atleta 5y ago
The article above is about the Polish ruling party. "They" logically means exactly them (the Polish Ruling party and/or the Polish state which, I guess, is mostly controlled by the said party).

RicoElectrico 5y ago

Virtually no officials were dismissed during the rule of PiS after a scandal. Their electorate does not have an issue with that. They are Poland's Trump, but much worse.

kahrl 5y ago
> Their electorate does not have an issue with that. How can you place blame on the electorate? People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes.
- petre 5y ago
  They voted for PiS time and time again. Any party with the words "justice" and "law" in it are probably fascists that would cling to power by any means necessary. Look at Turkey's AKP.
- RicoElectrico 5y ago
  PiS literally guides its policy after what would be favorable in polls.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes. Except, you know, if the "right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regime" is democratically elected over and over.
hammock 5y ago
What do you believe was better about Trump?
- scotty79 5y ago
  People around him ignored him as much as possible. In Poland, president, both chambers of the parliament, constitutional court and state prosecutor are all Trumps.
  - garaetjjte 5y ago
    Correction: PiS doesn't currently have majority in the upper house of parliament. (upper house doesn't have much power though)
- krzyk 5y ago
  He lost elections.
  - dukeofdoom 5y ago
    By at least 81 gazillion mail-in ballots
- Jorengarenar 5y ago
  Many compared Trump to Hitler. Kaczyński took more lessons from Stalin

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> How is it not a Watergate? There was irrefutable proof that Nixon ordered the break into DNC headquarters and then covered it up. We have proof Brejza was hacked. To become Watergate, we need proof the government ordered it.

petre 5y ago
Don't worry, further evidence will appear, but nobody's getting impeached or resigning, because this is Poland in 2022, only 32 years out if communism, not the USA in 1974, a 200 year old well consolidated democracy.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
There isn't really proof Nixon ordered the break in, though that's because he created and funded a group to do such things without his knowledge. They still had strong ties to Nixon and he did attempt to cover-up the break in.
- ozfive 5y ago
  Downvoted for obfuscating and perpetuating some alternate reality where Nixon was innocent by ignorance. Covering up anything is admittance of guilt.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    He wasn't innocent, I thought my comment made that clear by saying they were paid by him and saying he definitely participated in the failed cover-up that led to his impeachment. He just didn't order the break in. Historical accuracy, not a deflection of guilt.
    - ozfive 5y ago
      Ok thank you for the clarification. Removed down-vote. That guy was slime and should always be remembered as such.

pzduniak 5y ago

How is proving that politicians and their families are stealing millions from the country's budget / EU funds, while denying access to anyone affiliated with the opposition, not "a Watergate"? That's just a normal day for us in Poland. People who vote for Law and Justice do not care the law (which has been already changed to serve their interests) nor the justice (which is also nearly fully controlled by them at this point). As long as it pisses off the other side, it's OK with them. Oh, and the Catholic Church is helping them, because they also get a cut.

legutierr 5y ago
> Oh, and the Catholic Church is helping them, because they also get a cut. With the acquiescence of the Pope, or is he turning a blind eye to this?
- scotty79 5y ago
  Popes don't tend to be sharp sighted individuals as various church scandals indicate.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    Isn’t it more likely that the popes are plenty sharp and part of the versions scandals?
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Probably not. Ignorance (including willful) is usualy more probable explanation.
- pzduniak 5y ago
  I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the institution to give a proper response. To me, many of their (Polish Episcopate's) actions are illogical and a net loss to the community they're supposed to foster. I don't think that the Vatican necessarily has that much power over the Polish Episcopate. It seems like they operate as an association of non-profits all across the world and every single organization operates independently, within a rough framework. I live in one of the largest cities, haven't ever really been a church-goer. Going through all the sacraments was just a traditional thing you'd do. A decade ago, I don't remember hearing anything political in my local church. Sure, I heard some pretty obnoxious homophobic stuff, saw "exorcisms", but it was always somewhat neutral. However over the past few years, I've heard a lot of stories about rabid priests demonizing "the other side" (be it the other parties, "the LGBT plague" etc.), saying that the only way towards salvation is voting for PiS. Maybe it was a very vocal minority that was amplified by the media (look, priest X is doing this stuff! how terrible!). Eventually it seemed like that behaviour was normalized and the attitude of the people towards the Church became even more radicalized. Right now, the percentage of people who claim they're religious is plummeting. People who disagree with PiS (and the behaviour of the Church) are pulling their kids from "Religion" / Catechesis lessons, mostly in large cities. In my community, the schools have to group up multiple classes to even have groups of 10. How do you fight it? Well, you give a ton of funding to "patriotic causes", which are primarily promoting Catholicism, militarism / far-right, nationalistic narratives (the government is contributing to this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2XRK_Xb6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2XRK_Xb6g). The trade-off seems to be replacing your average church-goes / people who only go to the church for baptisms / First Communion / marriages, with Polish "patriots" - nationalists full of hatred towards anyone who's not white, religious and preferably voting for the Populist-Nationalists or Conservative-Liberals (who banded up with actual neonazis???). Arguably, I think that financially it could be a net positive for the Episcopate - they're getting public funding (for now) and possibly acquiring new, radicalized, loyal followers. Disclaimer: It probably _is_ a very loud minority. Unfortunately it's also the minority that appears to control the Church leadership. I feel sorry for the legitimately honest and good people I met through the Church, who are now getting grouped up with xenophobes.

a9WA7dLVnwcquge 5y ago

dukeofdoom 5y ago

> How is it not a Watergate? Didn't Trump complain his campaign was spied on too. Deep state will do what it will in every country. Politician change, but lifelong bureaucrats remain. Sometimes its not clear who really runs the show even. You can't assumed based on who is the figurehead on TV.

scotty79 5y ago
Trump is not exactly trustworthy narrator about anything. If independent Canadian researcher discovered Trump was spied on I suspect it would be a different story.