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Ruling party figures say Poland has Pegasus spyware

Krasnol 5y ago
Not paywalled source: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-leader-admits-country-bought-powerful-israeli-spyware-82129243 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-leader...
lmilcin 5y ago
Bought covertly for a large sum of money with intention not to use it.
woah 5y ago
At what point does the EU start to look pretty illiberal for tolerating this?
- animal_spirits 5y ago
  What power does the EU have to bring justice to this? (Asking as an American)
  - pzduniak 5y ago
    They can only withhold the funds, which they're already doing. We'll see how that plays out over the next few months.
  - jstummbillig 5y ago
    The EU usually handles EU law violations by member states with economic sanctions.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    There are many legal recourses because their are rules about being part of the EU. They can also threaten to drop susidizies and to kick them out. I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state affairs, because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' - they're just usually 'somewhat gooder'. In particular, Poland refuted the ECJ as having ultimate authority over local courts, the EU threw a huge fuss - but Poland has substantial backing for that: there is nothing in the treaties which indicate ECJ has said authority. At the very same time, the issue is not resolved even in Germany, and the German high courts are thinking of pressing a case. Since Germany is the 'centre of the EU' - and - there are gaping holes in the true legal authority of the ECJ for certain things, it's not a war that the EU wants to get into. It could tear a mile wide hole in the legal fabric of the EU. That said: I wish the would do it because the situation is unconscionable and almost nobody is aware of it. Using Pegasus to spy on political opponents however, is a bridge way, way too far. Poland is not going to have a leg to stand on either moral, populist, legal, treaty etc. - there's just no argument they can make. I think the EU should put a lot of heft behind this issue though. Finally, bit of a caveat, it could be that other EU states are using the same or similar tech to do 'similar kinds of things' - those EU states are not going to want to be embarrassed by public knowledge or airing of that. So that could be a problem.
    - MiroF 5y ago
      > I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state affairs, because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' - they're just usually 'somewhat gooder'. I trust the French/German political tradition a lot more than I trust Poland's
      - krzyk 5y ago
        I trust UK more (they didn't wave white flags like crazy nor they didn't start two world wars). It is a pity they are out now.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        iam-TJ 5y ago
        As a Brit and in the interest of accuracy, Britain declared war on Germany both in 1914 [0] and 1939 [1] after an ultimatum to Germany expired. So technically 'we' did "start" the WORLD WARs (if we hadn't declared war it is debatable war would have spread to the rest of the world (at least immediately)). [0] 23:00 August 4th 1914, in response to the invasion of Belgium by Germany. [1] 11:00 September 3rd 1939, in response to the invasion of Poland by Germany.
        dahfizz 5y ago
        Why draw the line of causation there? That seems a bit ridiculous. France had issued the same ultimatum, and declared war just a few hours later. Both France and Britian were obligated by treaty to defend Poland. Germany started the conflict, and knew full well that they would force other countries to get involved. To claim otherwise is counter-factual. If you punch a police officer in his face, and his partner knocks you out, you can't claim the partner started the fight.
  - atleta 5y ago
    There is Article 7, which can result in the suspension of the voting rights of the member state, but it's pretty slow. They have also been working on new mechanisms exactly because of rule of law violations by some member states (including Poland and Hungary). Poland is actually being sanctioned, AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day as of now for some violation. I think it's related to their restrictive abortion laws (and they are ignoring the ruling of the European Court, or something like that). This is besides withholding the funds, which have been mentioned by others and which is happening to Hungary as of now. They are withholding 7.2 billion EURs of the reconstruction fund due to claims of high corruption and an inadequate legal structure and thus control over how it's being spent. (I.e. they can't see the guarantees that a sizeable chunk of it won't be stolen and/or spent on things other than what it's intended for.) And it is, indeed a direct consequence (one of the direct consequences) of the lack of adequate rule of law. No wonder: the very reason these guys dismantle democracy is to seize more power, keep the power and to steal us much as they can. (Which is, besides the obvious personal motivations, is a requisite for operating their power structure.) EDIT: typos.
    - garaetjjte 5y ago
      >Poland is actually being sanctioned, AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day as of now for some violation. That's 0.5M/day related to dispute with Czechs over environmental impact of Turów mine. It seems PiS strategy for negotiating with Czechs is just completely ignoring them, which lead ECJ to impose fines.
      - atleta 5y ago
        Then there are multiple parallel sanctions. There is a 1M/day one as well and it's related to the rule of law. I was wrong, it's not about the abortion act but about the independence of courts [1] [2]. (As far as I can understand they created a system where judges can be disciplined and that is deemed to allow political control over them and their decisions.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-poland-pay-1-million-euros-day-rule-law-row-2021-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-pol... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-poland-pay-1-million-euros-day-rule-law-row-2021-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-pol...
- nyokodo 5y ago
  Or, when does the EU start looking powerless to stop it.
  - jstummbillig 5y ago
    At the point, where the EU is more dependent on Poland being in the EU, than Poland is on being in the EU. That seems a little far fetched at the moment. Then again, that didn't stop the UK.
- hammock 5y ago
  Illiberal = tolerant?
  - pxeger1 5y ago
    Illiberal, as in not supporting human liberties, by tolerating the authoritarian Polish government. It confused me too.
    - hammock 5y ago
      I'm still confused where they're asking for a pan-Europe government to step in and force a country to cede some of its sovereignty to it (the EU) and calling that liberal. That strikes me as slightly different than, say, a coalition breaking up a human rights-violating empire and RETURNING democratic sovereignty to its people.
      - woah 5y ago
        The USA stepped in to stop slavery and then later apartheid in the southern states. If they hadn't, I think we would think less of them.
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  I would consider it as such already. Federations are ultimately responsible for the failures and flaws of their constituent states if they have the power to prevent them. Nobody considers the US federal government entirely free of blame when a US state passes an illiberal or undemocratic law (e.g. Jim Crow laws), and neither should EU be absolved of responsibility in properly enforcing EU laws in places like Poland and Hungary.
  - tryptophan 5y ago
    The EU is not a federal state.
    - harpersealtako 5y ago
      It IS a federation, and regardless of what you call it, the fact is that the EU has the ability to control and limit its rogue members to protect human rights, and chooses not to exercise this power in many cases. The EU is to blame for this and can be considered illiberal in this regard because it does not adequately prevent its constituent states from passing laws that infringe on citizens' fundamental rights.
      - Sporktacular 5y ago
        It is exercising that power to the extent it can. Taking them to court and applying economic penalties would be how actual federated states deal with rogue provinces, at least, at first. The EU doesn't have a federal police force, or even a military with a mandate to reimpose the rule of (European) law in Poland. So it's silly to suggest it has the powers of a federal state, and hence the culpability of one, so should somehow be considered illiberal.
kubanczyk 5y ago
> On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition’s parliamentary election campaign. How is it not a Watergate? They used Pegasus on the leader of the most important election campaign in the last 7 years in Poland.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  That really depends who "they" are, doesn't it? Spying is usually done on important people, not random nobodies.
  - atleta 5y ago
    The article above is about the Polish ruling party. "They" logically means exactly them (the Polish Ruling party and/or the Polish state which, I guess, is mostly controlled by the said party).
- RicoElectrico 5y ago
  Virtually no officials were dismissed during the rule of PiS after a scandal. Their electorate does not have an issue with that. They are Poland's Trump, but much worse.
  - kahrl 5y ago
    > Their electorate does not have an issue with that. How can you place blame on the electorate? People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes.
    - petre 5y ago
      They voted for PiS time and time again. Any party with the words "justice" and "law" in it are probably fascists that would cling to power by any means necessary. Look at Turkey's AKP.
    - RicoElectrico 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
FpUser 5y ago
>"The interview follows exclusive reports by The Associated Press that Citizen Lab, a cyber watchdog group at the University of Toronto, found that three Polish government critics were hacked with NSO’s Pegasus. On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition’s parliamentary election campaign. Text messages stolen from Brejza’s phone were doctored and aired by state-controlled TV in Poland as part of a smear campaign in the heat of the race, which the populist ruling party went on to narrowly win." How come this is not prosecuted criminally?
- surfingdino 5y ago
  Difficult to do when the prosecutor general is potentially facing a case against himself in the ICC https://www.politico.eu/article/roman-giertych-donald-tusk-poland-spy-journalists-lawyers-opposition-citizen-lab-rzeczpospolita/ https://www.politico.eu/article/roman-giertych-donald-tusk-p...
- Lorak_ 5y ago
  By whom?
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    The very first thing PiS did was illegally replace supreme court judges.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    If the victim files criminal complaint to whatever their attorney general office is called should not it be actionable items by definition?
- jakub_g 5y ago
  PiS controls, via their puppets: the parliamentary majority, the president, all ministries, the attorney general, the courts, the supreme court, public TV and radio, all important companies in important sectors (oil, gas), most of regional radios and press, schools etc. They ignore the law on daily basis without blinking an eye, spend money like there's no tomorrow (often throwing tens of millions into mud), pass hastily written laws after midnight, and are extremely arrogant with everything they do. They don't talk with free press anymore, or if they do, they repeat scheduled sentences sent in the morning by sms from the leadership. They don't answer the questions; they talk monologue. There was no such arrogance in power in Poland ever, even under communist rule. The only things they don't control are: senate (48-52), and presidents of big cities + regions; but they steadily amend the laws and funding to make the regions weaker and centralize the power further. They have almost absolute power at this point, and the only way someone will get prosecuted until they stay in power is someone who tries to threaten their status quo; however since their parliamentary majority is minimal, they're hiding under the carpet everything they can to avoid losing the 51%.
throwJan22 5y ago
Poland has an authoritarian govt now. They started by sacking the supreme court and installing its own judges https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/new-polish-regime-sparks-crisis-by-firing-five-judges-1.2453540 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/new-polish-regi... Last independent newspapers were bought by state owned Gas Station chain. https://www.dw.com/en/poland-state-run-oil-company-buys-leading-media-group/a-55859592 https://www.dw.com/en/poland-state-run-oil-company-buys-lead... The only independent new TV channel was going to get shut down but recently had a last minute veto. https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/discovery-poland-media-bill-veto-1235143529/ https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/discovery-poland-media-bi... It defies EU who says member countries must have EU law supremacy https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/europe/eu-poland-rule-of-law-challenge-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/europe/eu-poland-rule-of-law-... They regularly have parliamentary votes late at night when only the PiS party turns up. They give a lot of money to the church who then praise the party during services. Its not a real democracy any more.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Very sympathetic to that and it's all disconcerting, but 1) the 'Supreme / Constitutional Court' issue is not nearly as 'one sided'. There were terrible shenanigans played by 'the other side' prior to their departure, which originated that crisis. While I have little faith in PiS, they had legitimate concerns as least to provide cover for some of their own actions. and item 4) "It defies EU who says member countries must have EU law supremacy" - sorry to burst your bubble but that is reality. There is no treaty or law that gives ECJ 'Supremacy'. The ECJ in 1964 [1] made a ruling on their own jurisdiction and 'declared supremacy'. There is no legislative or treaty basis for quite the authority they assigned to themselves. Some local courts in the EU (i.e. France) have started to defer to the ruling, therefore legitimizing it, but it's still a 'Giant Problem' in the legal foundation of the EU. It was a big 'non populist' issue for Brexit, not really talked about in the media because regular citizens don't care but it was definitely an issue among the elites, and, it's still a contentious issue in Germany (and other places), where the Supremacy of ECJ is still not effectively recognized and it's a 'grey area'. But yes, it's a serious problem overall, we can agree. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law
atleta 5y ago
Well, our beloved Hungarian government never made this mistake. I don't mean buying and using Pegasus against opposition politicians and journalists, which they obviously did, but admitting that they have it. (Except for one well known idiot who is a prominent founding member of the governing party, Fidesz, and regularly gets confused and spills the beans when journalists question him. Not that any Fidesz member or government official would talk to the press except for exceptional occasions.) EDIT: typos.
- dylan604 5y ago
  so in other words, "beloved Hungarian gov't never made this mistake, except when it did"
  - atleta 5y ago
    I was being ironic: they never made the mistake to intentionally admit it. But yes, they ended up admitting unintentionally which they redacted pretty quickly and tried to explain away. This includes the guy who ended up admitting it in the first place. (Named Lajos Kosa, JFTR.)
    - dylan604 5y ago
      maybe i should have prepended the word Comrade to it?
TonyRobbins 5y ago
yosito 5y ago
I don't have any extensive knowledge of the situation, but it seems to me, in the modern world, the only governments NOT using software to spy on political opponents are governments that aren't competent enough. The only ones that you hear about are the ones that are competent enough to do it, but not quite competent enough to hide it. Having been raised in the 80 and 90s when we still considered Watergate to be a scandal, I find this kind of spying to be an undemocratic abuse of power. But it's the reality we live in now. Most wars these days are wars of knowledge and spying on opponents is, unfortunately, no longer a scandal, but the reality of modern power struggles.
young_unixer 5y ago
Morally, I find it much more acceptable for governments to use non-coercitive methods like hacking instead of coercitive methods like subpoenas requesting user data.
kodisha 5y ago
How can one fight against this software? Or are you going to get infected with it no matter what phone/OS you use??
- lrem 5y ago
  Do not use a smartphone seems to be the only answer. NSO seems to have the skill and resources to keep that pipeline of 0days going.
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  Periodically wipe and restore your phone from scratch or a known clean image, periodically change your number. Donate to Citizen Lab, EFF, Freedom of the Press Foundation, Amnesty encouraging their investigative and advisory work. Write to your representative asking for stronger regulation of the industry and sanctions against the rogue companies and their staff. So in practicality, not a lot directly.
oreoftw 5y ago
That’s no big news. Largest newspapers have covered procurement and the fact that Pegasus has been bought several years ago.
Tade0 5y ago
Pardon the snark, but this appears to be a case for Marian Banaś[0] a.k.a. Banaśman - exactly the kind of hero we deserve. [0] Chief of the Supreme Audit Office who was originally appointed by the ruling party to be loyal, but not exactly competent. Once the internal conflicts in the party spilled over to his family he found his redemption arc - and what an arc it is!
nathell 5y ago
The funny thing is that up until Kaczyński openly admitted to the authorities using Pegasus, the authorities would respond to the accusations with derisive comments about a game console. Why a game console, of all things? Well, back in the early 1990s here in Poland, a local Nintendo NES/Famicom clone called Pegasus [1] was a thing among the kids. A hit, indeed. Here’s [2] the deputy Minister of Justice dismissing the accusations in this regard, a few days ago. Except the photo posted by him doesn’t even depict Pegasus the console. It’s another Famicom clone, whose chassis is a rip-off of the design of the PS One (2000). [1]: https://culture.pl/en/article/pegasus-other-famiclones-how-polish-kids-discovered-nintendo-games-in-the-1990s https://culture.pl/en/article/pegasus-other-famiclones-how-p... [2]: https://twitter.com/MWosPL/status/1477938410849452034 https://twitter.com/MWosPL/status/1477938410849452034
scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
PiS maintains power through a process similar to gerrymandering. Their base is at around 30% and they acquired power by strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at appealing to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the population. Their core promise is a vision of family- and country-first and glory for the heroes of a vague past. In practice PiS rules by causing controversy after controversy which effectively splits the opposition and media, and mostly covers up for the dumbest corruption schemes ever. Most Poles have a distaste for Western European neoliberal politics and are center-right conservative if not libertarian with some liberal, but at this point everybody knows PiS is just filled with cynical and opportunistic apparatchiks. The worst part is that the people who control PiS are simply wicked clever. They’ve spent the last six years continuously running a never-ending political campaign with their media at full blast, and a stand-in president who is constantly traveling and visiting key-towns to meet-greet the communities. Right when they took power in 2015 they reformed the Supreme Court by firing a bunch of judges and installing loyalists effectively breaking the constitution. It’s like a dictatorship of stupid. And what must be said: it’s not that Poland is turning into an actual fascist dictatorship, not that much violence is happening and our political views aren’t being really repressed. The real problem is that PiS is actually strategically weakening us as a country and nation. Especially in our international relationships. This Pegasus spyware is only yet another such example of the BS. In my own personal opinion, at this point PiS has been doing everything so poorly that I suspect that they’re actually being supported and controlled by external adversaries behind the scenes.
- justapassenger 5y ago
  > PiS maintains power through a process similar to gerrymandering. Their base is at around 30% and they acquired power by strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at appealing to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the population I don't disagree with rest of your comment. But that's nothing like gerrymandering. It's pure politics. Gerrymandering is choosing your voters, by meddling with an importance of each single vote. Politics is knowing your base and crafting message at them. No sane political party in the world tries to craft their policies to make everyone happy. Knowing your voters and telling them what they want to hear is politics 101.
praptak 5y ago
To make it more interesting, Poland's biggest newspaper makes quite a solid case that the purchase was funded via embezzlement [0] (Polish only). Kaczyński dismissed the misappropriation of the funds as "mere technicality". [0] https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,27956090,klamstwa-w-sprawie-pegasusa.html https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,27956090,klamstwa-w-sprawie-pega...
fromPL123 5y ago
PiS is acting surprisingly competent, so I think big brother migh be helping them. There's only 3 powers that have direct interest here: Russia, Germany and US. We had real goveremnt for less than month after 89, then we got russian puppets. PO, Nowoczesna is definitely pro EU = Germany. Tusk wanted to be singer but failed so he sold the country to Germans. I would even like EU federation but older people (>50yo) are definitely agaist it. Actually it's during short PiS rule that Poland joined EU and retained own currency. Both good decision in retrospective. This time around they are 100% propaganda mode and this Pegasus use is definitely overreach. Make no mistake during PO days they also raided and poor teenageers. Now at least it's limited to oposition. Think Aaron Shwarz case. But TBH they are better at ruling than alternatives and history shows you need to have strong grasp to pull up so to say. If anyone thinks that Germans will allow Polish economy to catch up while they rule is mistaken. They want to have cheap labor nearby border and Ukrainians prefer to work in PL due to language, which makes PL economy very competitive. Good play would be to make Ukraine part of EU but RUS won't allow it, so next best play for Germany is to win propaganda game in PL or just let Russians pick Ukraine so it's win-win for both Russia and Germany. With nord stream 2 from our PoV it's Ribbentrop-Molotov lite. I wish there was some better party to vote. Why I think US is aiding PiS? Germans are their biggest competitors in the west. If they lose race with China then US future will depend on India, Russia and EU. They will want a wry here and Poland is perfect for that, which makes me nervous TBH. Geopolitically we are like Taiwan or SK of Asia (wry against Japan and China).

Not paywalled source: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-leader-admits-country-bought-powerful-israeli-spyware-82129243 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-leader...

lmilcin 5y ago

Bought covertly for a large sum of money with intention not to use it.

woah 5y ago

At what point does the EU start to look pretty illiberal for tolerating this?

animal_spirits 5y ago
What power does the EU have to bring justice to this? (Asking as an American)
- pzduniak 5y ago
  They can only withhold the funds, which they're already doing. We'll see how that plays out over the next few months.
- jstummbillig 5y ago
  The EU usually handles EU law violations by member states with economic sanctions.
- jollybean 5y ago
  There are many legal recourses because their are rules about being part of the EU. They can also threaten to drop susidizies and to kick them out. I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state affairs, because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' - they're just usually 'somewhat gooder'. In particular, Poland refuted the ECJ as having ultimate authority over local courts, the EU threw a huge fuss - but Poland has substantial backing for that: there is nothing in the treaties which indicate ECJ has said authority. At the very same time, the issue is not resolved even in Germany, and the German high courts are thinking of pressing a case. Since Germany is the 'centre of the EU' - and - there are gaping holes in the true legal authority of the ECJ for certain things, it's not a war that the EU wants to get into. It could tear a mile wide hole in the legal fabric of the EU. That said: I wish the would do it because the situation is unconscionable and almost nobody is aware of it. Using Pegasus to spy on political opponents however, is a bridge way, way too far. Poland is not going to have a leg to stand on either moral, populist, legal, treaty etc. - there's just no argument they can make. I think the EU should put a lot of heft behind this issue though. Finally, bit of a caveat, it could be that other EU states are using the same or similar tech to do 'similar kinds of things' - those EU states are not going to want to be embarrassed by public knowledge or airing of that. So that could be a problem.
  - MiroF 5y ago
    > I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state affairs, because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' - they're just usually 'somewhat gooder'. I trust the French/German political tradition a lot more than I trust Poland's
    - krzyk 5y ago
      I trust UK more (they didn't wave white flags like crazy nor they didn't start two world wars). It is a pity they are out now.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - iam-TJ 5y ago
        As a Brit and in the interest of accuracy, Britain declared war on Germany both in 1914 [0] and 1939 [1] after an ultimatum to Germany expired. So technically 'we' did "start" the WORLD WARs (if we hadn't declared war it is debatable war would have spread to the rest of the world (at least immediately)). [0] 23:00 August 4th 1914, in response to the invasion of Belgium by Germany. [1] 11:00 September 3rd 1939, in response to the invasion of Poland by Germany.
        dahfizz 5y ago
        Why draw the line of causation there? That seems a bit ridiculous. France had issued the same ultimatum, and declared war just a few hours later. Both France and Britian were obligated by treaty to defend Poland. Germany started the conflict, and knew full well that they would force other countries to get involved. To claim otherwise is counter-factual. If you punch a police officer in his face, and his partner knocks you out, you can't claim the partner started the fight.
- atleta 5y ago
  There is Article 7, which can result in the suspension of the voting rights of the member state, but it's pretty slow. They have also been working on new mechanisms exactly because of rule of law violations by some member states (including Poland and Hungary). Poland is actually being sanctioned, AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day as of now for some violation. I think it's related to their restrictive abortion laws (and they are ignoring the ruling of the European Court, or something like that). This is besides withholding the funds, which have been mentioned by others and which is happening to Hungary as of now. They are withholding 7.2 billion EURs of the reconstruction fund due to claims of high corruption and an inadequate legal structure and thus control over how it's being spent. (I.e. they can't see the guarantees that a sizeable chunk of it won't be stolen and/or spent on things other than what it's intended for.) And it is, indeed a direct consequence (one of the direct consequences) of the lack of adequate rule of law. No wonder: the very reason these guys dismantle democracy is to seize more power, keep the power and to steal us much as they can. (Which is, besides the obvious personal motivations, is a requisite for operating their power structure.) EDIT: typos.
  - garaetjjte 5y ago
    >Poland is actually being sanctioned, AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day as of now for some violation. That's 0.5M/day related to dispute with Czechs over environmental impact of Turów mine. It seems PiS strategy for negotiating with Czechs is just completely ignoring them, which lead ECJ to impose fines.
    - atleta 5y ago
      Then there are multiple parallel sanctions. There is a 1M/day one as well and it's related to the rule of law. I was wrong, it's not about the abortion act but about the independence of courts [1] [2]. (As far as I can understand they created a system where judges can be disciplined and that is deemed to allow political control over them and their decisions.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-poland-pay-1-million-euros-day-rule-law-row-2021-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-pol... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-poland-pay-1-million-euros-day-rule-law-row-2021-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-pol...
nyokodo 5y ago
Or, when does the EU start looking powerless to stop it.
- jstummbillig 5y ago
  At the point, where the EU is more dependent on Poland being in the EU, than Poland is on being in the EU. That seems a little far fetched at the moment. Then again, that didn't stop the UK.
hammock 5y ago
Illiberal = tolerant?
- pxeger1 5y ago
  Illiberal, as in not supporting human liberties, by tolerating the authoritarian Polish government. It confused me too.
  - hammock 5y ago
    I'm still confused where they're asking for a pan-Europe government to step in and force a country to cede some of its sovereignty to it (the EU) and calling that liberal. That strikes me as slightly different than, say, a coalition breaking up a human rights-violating empire and RETURNING democratic sovereignty to its people.
    - woah 5y ago
      The USA stepped in to stop slavery and then later apartheid in the southern states. If they hadn't, I think we would think less of them.
harpersealtako 5y ago
I would consider it as such already. Federations are ultimately responsible for the failures and flaws of their constituent states if they have the power to prevent them. Nobody considers the US federal government entirely free of blame when a US state passes an illiberal or undemocratic law (e.g. Jim Crow laws), and neither should EU be absolved of responsibility in properly enforcing EU laws in places like Poland and Hungary.
- tryptophan 5y ago
  The EU is not a federal state.
  - harpersealtako 5y ago
    It IS a federation, and regardless of what you call it, the fact is that the EU has the ability to control and limit its rogue members to protect human rights, and chooses not to exercise this power in many cases. The EU is to blame for this and can be considered illiberal in this regard because it does not adequately prevent its constituent states from passing laws that infringe on citizens' fundamental rights.
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      It is exercising that power to the extent it can. Taking them to court and applying economic penalties would be how actual federated states deal with rogue provinces, at least, at first. The EU doesn't have a federal police force, or even a military with a mandate to reimpose the rule of (European) law in Poland. So it's silly to suggest it has the powers of a federal state, and hence the culpability of one, so should somehow be considered illiberal.

kubanczyk 5y ago

> On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition’s parliamentary election campaign. How is it not a Watergate? They used Pegasus on the leader of the most important election campaign in the last 7 years in Poland.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
That really depends who "they" are, doesn't it? Spying is usually done on important people, not random nobodies.
- atleta 5y ago
  The article above is about the Polish ruling party. "They" logically means exactly them (the Polish Ruling party and/or the Polish state which, I guess, is mostly controlled by the said party).
RicoElectrico 5y ago
Virtually no officials were dismissed during the rule of PiS after a scandal. Their electorate does not have an issue with that. They are Poland's Trump, but much worse.
- kahrl 5y ago
  > Their electorate does not have an issue with that. How can you place blame on the electorate? People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian regimes.
  - petre 5y ago
    They voted for PiS time and time again. Any party with the words "justice" and "law" in it are probably fascists that would cling to power by any means necessary. Look at Turkey's AKP.
  - RicoElectrico 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

FpUser 5y ago

>"The interview follows exclusive reports by The Associated Press that Citizen Lab, a cyber watchdog group at the University of Toronto, found that three Polish government critics were hacked with NSO’s Pegasus. On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition’s parliamentary election campaign. Text messages stolen from Brejza’s phone were doctored and aired by state-controlled TV in Poland as part of a smear campaign in the heat of the race, which the populist ruling party went on to narrowly win." How come this is not prosecuted criminally?

surfingdino 5y ago
Difficult to do when the prosecutor general is potentially facing a case against himself in the ICC https://www.politico.eu/article/roman-giertych-donald-tusk-poland-spy-journalists-lawyers-opposition-citizen-lab-rzeczpospolita/ https://www.politico.eu/article/roman-giertych-donald-tusk-p...
Lorak_ 5y ago
By whom?
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  The very first thing PiS did was illegally replace supreme court judges.
- FpUser 5y ago
  If the victim files criminal complaint to whatever their attorney general office is called should not it be actionable items by definition?
jakub_g 5y ago
PiS controls, via their puppets: the parliamentary majority, the president, all ministries, the attorney general, the courts, the supreme court, public TV and radio, all important companies in important sectors (oil, gas), most of regional radios and press, schools etc. They ignore the law on daily basis without blinking an eye, spend money like there's no tomorrow (often throwing tens of millions into mud), pass hastily written laws after midnight, and are extremely arrogant with everything they do. They don't talk with free press anymore, or if they do, they repeat scheduled sentences sent in the morning by sms from the leadership. They don't answer the questions; they talk monologue. There was no such arrogance in power in Poland ever, even under communist rule. The only things they don't control are: senate (48-52), and presidents of big cities + regions; but they steadily amend the laws and funding to make the regions weaker and centralize the power further. They have almost absolute power at this point, and the only way someone will get prosecuted until they stay in power is someone who tries to threaten their status quo; however since their parliamentary majority is minimal, they're hiding under the carpet everything they can to avoid losing the 51%.

throwJan22 5y ago

Poland has an authoritarian govt now. They started by sacking the supreme court and installing its own judges https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/new-polish-regime-sparks-crisis-by-firing-five-judges-1.2453540 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/new-polish-regi... Last independent newspapers were bought by state owned Gas Station chain. https://www.dw.com/en/poland-state-run-oil-company-buys-leading-media-group/a-55859592 https://www.dw.com/en/poland-state-run-oil-company-buys-lead... The only independent new TV channel was going to get shut down but recently had a last minute veto. https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/discovery-poland-media-bill-veto-1235143529/ https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/discovery-poland-media-bi... It defies EU who says member countries must have EU law supremacy https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/europe/eu-poland-rule-of-law-challenge-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/europe/eu-poland-rule-of-law-... They regularly have parliamentary votes late at night when only the PiS party turns up. They give a lot of money to the church who then praise the party during services. Its not a real democracy any more.

jollybean 5y ago
Very sympathetic to that and it's all disconcerting, but 1) the 'Supreme / Constitutional Court' issue is not nearly as 'one sided'. There were terrible shenanigans played by 'the other side' prior to their departure, which originated that crisis. While I have little faith in PiS, they had legitimate concerns as least to provide cover for some of their own actions. and item 4) "It defies EU who says member countries must have EU law supremacy" - sorry to burst your bubble but that is reality. There is no treaty or law that gives ECJ 'Supremacy'. The ECJ in 1964 [1] made a ruling on their own jurisdiction and 'declared supremacy'. There is no legislative or treaty basis for quite the authority they assigned to themselves. Some local courts in the EU (i.e. France) have started to defer to the ruling, therefore legitimizing it, but it's still a 'Giant Problem' in the legal foundation of the EU. It was a big 'non populist' issue for Brexit, not really talked about in the media because regular citizens don't care but it was definitely an issue among the elites, and, it's still a contentious issue in Germany (and other places), where the Supremacy of ECJ is still not effectively recognized and it's a 'grey area'. But yes, it's a serious problem overall, we can agree. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

atleta 5y ago

Well, our beloved Hungarian government never made this mistake. I don't mean buying and using Pegasus against opposition politicians and journalists, which they obviously did, but admitting that they have it. (Except for one well known idiot who is a prominent founding member of the governing party, Fidesz, and regularly gets confused and spills the beans when journalists question him. Not that any Fidesz member or government official would talk to the press except for exceptional occasions.) EDIT: typos.

dylan604 5y ago
so in other words, "beloved Hungarian gov't never made this mistake, except when it did"
- atleta 5y ago
  I was being ironic: they never made the mistake to intentionally admit it. But yes, they ended up admitting unintentionally which they redacted pretty quickly and tried to explain away. This includes the guy who ended up admitting it in the first place. (Named Lajos Kosa, JFTR.)
  - dylan604 5y ago
    maybe i should have prepended the word Comrade to it?

TonyRobbins 5y ago

yosito 5y ago

I don't have any extensive knowledge of the situation, but it seems to me, in the modern world, the only governments NOT using software to spy on political opponents are governments that aren't competent enough. The only ones that you hear about are the ones that are competent enough to do it, but not quite competent enough to hide it. Having been raised in the 80 and 90s when we still considered Watergate to be a scandal, I find this kind of spying to be an undemocratic abuse of power. But it's the reality we live in now. Most wars these days are wars of knowledge and spying on opponents is, unfortunately, no longer a scandal, but the reality of modern power struggles.

young_unixer 5y ago

Morally, I find it much more acceptable for governments to use non-coercitive methods like hacking instead of coercitive methods like subpoenas requesting user data.

kodisha 5y ago

How can one fight against this software? Or are you going to get infected with it no matter what phone/OS you use??

lrem 5y ago
Do not use a smartphone seems to be the only answer. NSO seems to have the skill and resources to keep that pipeline of 0days going.
Sporktacular 5y ago
Periodically wipe and restore your phone from scratch or a known clean image, periodically change your number. Donate to Citizen Lab, EFF, Freedom of the Press Foundation, Amnesty encouraging their investigative and advisory work. Write to your representative asking for stronger regulation of the industry and sanctions against the rogue companies and their staff. So in practicality, not a lot directly.

oreoftw 5y ago

That’s no big news. Largest newspapers have covered procurement and the fact that Pegasus has been bought several years ago.

Tade0 5y ago

Pardon the snark, but this appears to be a case for Marian Banaś[0] a.k.a. Banaśman - exactly the kind of hero we deserve. [0] Chief of the Supreme Audit Office who was originally appointed by the ruling party to be loyal, but not exactly competent. Once the internal conflicts in the party spilled over to his family he found his redemption arc - and what an arc it is!

nathell 5y ago

The funny thing is that up until Kaczyński openly admitted to the authorities using Pegasus, the authorities would respond to the accusations with derisive comments about a game console. Why a game console, of all things? Well, back in the early 1990s here in Poland, a local Nintendo NES/Famicom clone called Pegasus [1] was a thing among the kids. A hit, indeed. Here’s [2] the deputy Minister of Justice dismissing the accusations in this regard, a few days ago. Except the photo posted by him doesn’t even depict Pegasus the console. It’s another Famicom clone, whose chassis is a rip-off of the design of the PS One (2000). [1]: https://culture.pl/en/article/pegasus-other-famiclones-how-polish-kids-discovered-nintendo-games-in-the-1990s https://culture.pl/en/article/pegasus-other-famiclones-how-p... [2]: https://twitter.com/MWosPL/status/1477938410849452034 https://twitter.com/MWosPL/status/1477938410849452034

scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago

PiS maintains power through a process similar to gerrymandering. Their base is at around 30% and they acquired power by strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at appealing to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the population. Their core promise is a vision of family- and country-first and glory for the heroes of a vague past. In practice PiS rules by causing controversy after controversy which effectively splits the opposition and media, and mostly covers up for the dumbest corruption schemes ever. Most Poles have a distaste for Western European neoliberal politics and are center-right conservative if not libertarian with some liberal, but at this point everybody knows PiS is just filled with cynical and opportunistic apparatchiks. The worst part is that the people who control PiS are simply wicked clever. They’ve spent the last six years continuously running a never-ending political campaign with their media at full blast, and a stand-in president who is constantly traveling and visiting key-towns to meet-greet the communities. Right when they took power in 2015 they reformed the Supreme Court by firing a bunch of judges and installing loyalists effectively breaking the constitution. It’s like a dictatorship of stupid. And what must be said: it’s not that Poland is turning into an actual fascist dictatorship, not that much violence is happening and our political views aren’t being really repressed. The real problem is that PiS is actually strategically weakening us as a country and nation. Especially in our international relationships. This Pegasus spyware is only yet another such example of the BS. In my own personal opinion, at this point PiS has been doing everything so poorly that I suspect that they’re actually being supported and controlled by external adversaries behind the scenes.

justapassenger 5y ago
> PiS maintains power through a process similar to gerrymandering. Their base is at around 30% and they acquired power by strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at appealing to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the population I don't disagree with rest of your comment. But that's nothing like gerrymandering. It's pure politics. Gerrymandering is choosing your voters, by meddling with an importance of each single vote. Politics is knowing your base and crafting message at them. No sane political party in the world tries to craft their policies to make everyone happy. Knowing your voters and telling them what they want to hear is politics 101.

praptak 5y ago

To make it more interesting, Poland's biggest newspaper makes quite a solid case that the purchase was funded via embezzlement [0] (Polish only). Kaczyński dismissed the misappropriation of the funds as "mere technicality". [0] https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,27956090,klamstwa-w-sprawie-pegasusa.html https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,27956090,klamstwa-w-sprawie-pega...

fromPL123 5y ago

PiS is acting surprisingly competent, so I think big brother migh be helping them. There's only 3 powers that have direct interest here: Russia, Germany and US. We had real goveremnt for less than month after 89, then we got russian puppets. PO, Nowoczesna is definitely pro EU = Germany. Tusk wanted to be singer but failed so he sold the country to Germans. I would even like EU federation but older people (>50yo) are definitely agaist it. Actually it's during short PiS rule that Poland joined EU and retained own currency. Both good decision in retrospective. This time around they are 100% propaganda mode and this Pegasus use is definitely overreach. Make no mistake during PO days they also raided and poor teenageers. Now at least it's limited to oposition. Think Aaron Shwarz case. But TBH they are better at ruling than alternatives and history shows you need to have strong grasp to pull up so to say. If anyone thinks that Germans will allow Polish economy to catch up while they rule is mistaken. They want to have cheap labor nearby border and Ukrainians prefer to work in PL due to language, which makes PL economy very competitive. Good play would be to make Ukraine part of EU but RUS won't allow it, so next best play for Germany is to win propaganda game in PL or just let Russians pick Ukraine so it's win-win for both Russia and Germany. With nord stream 2 from our PoV it's Ribbentrop-Molotov lite. I wish there was some better party to vote. Why I think US is aiding PiS? Germans are their biggest competitors in the west. If they lose race with China then US future will depend on India, Russia and EU. They will want a wry here and Poland is perfect for that, which makes me nervous TBH. Geopolitically we are like Taiwan or SK of Asia (wry against Japan and China).