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The 'liberal order' was very happy to open up China and then enriched themselves selling off industry and manufacturing to China and elsewhere. They seem to hav

The 'liberal order' was very happy to open up China and then enriched themselves selling off industry and manufacturing to China and elsewhere. They seem to have thought that this would liberalize China, and that failed miserably . I don't know if they were sincere, since this belief has little historical support - I think they just wanted to make some money and came up with some justifications to sweeten the bitter medicine. That generation is passing away, and their ability to control global geopolitics is passing away too. It remains to be seen if the whole world will ever be 'liberal' or 'democratic' and it sure seems like much of the world would rather opt out.

curiousllama 5y ago
> I don't know if they were sincere Just because someone's wrong, doesn't mean they're evil. The USSR had literally just liberalized after similar policies. You telling me that wouldn't have been compelling evidence 30 years ago?
- throwawaygal7 5y ago
  I never called anyone evil, but if you think we liberalized the USSR by making them a major trading partner and moving our industrial base to the communist block... well, all I can say is I don't believe that's what happened, but you can if you'd like to. I'm not even sure it's fair to say the fall of the USSR was entirely due to external influence, I do think the pressure the west put was a factor but I think internal events like chernoybyl and the quirks of the leadership sucession in the 80s had as much to do with it.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> seem to have thought that this would liberalize China, and that failed miserably Most evidence suggest it was sincere. That it was one of the most major policy failings of the West is now admitted, even by its architects. That sort of remorse isn't common with conspiracies.
- throwawaygal7 5y ago
  Sure, and it is easy to find a way to support a policy if it also serves your profit motive.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- timbit42 5y ago
  Who were the architects?
zozbot234 5y ago
> They seem to have thought that this would liberalize China, and that failed miserably. It really hasn't. China is still far wealthier and more economically developed today than it was under Mao-era policies, and for a vast majority of average Chinese this is ultimately what matters most. They have little reason to care about abstract ideals like elections or individual rights when other things are so much more relevant to them.

curiousllama 5y ago

> I don't know if they were sincere Just because someone's wrong, doesn't mean they're evil. The USSR had literally just liberalized after similar policies. You telling me that wouldn't have been compelling evidence 30 years ago?

throwawaygal7 5y ago
I never called anyone evil, but if you think we liberalized the USSR by making them a major trading partner and moving our industrial base to the communist block... well, all I can say is I don't believe that's what happened, but you can if you'd like to. I'm not even sure it's fair to say the fall of the USSR was entirely due to external influence, I do think the pressure the west put was a factor but I think internal events like chernoybyl and the quirks of the leadership sucession in the 80s had as much to do with it.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> seem to have thought that this would liberalize China, and that failed miserably Most evidence suggest it was sincere. That it was one of the most major policy failings of the West is now admitted, even by its architects. That sort of remorse isn't common with conspiracies.

throwawaygal7 5y ago
Sure, and it is easy to find a way to support a policy if it also serves your profit motive.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
timbit42 5y ago
Who were the architects?

zozbot234 5y ago

> They seem to have thought that this would liberalize China, and that failed miserably. It really hasn't. China is still far wealthier and more economically developed today than it was under Mao-era policies, and for a vast majority of average Chinese this is ultimately what matters most. They have little reason to care about abstract ideals like elections or individual rights when other things are so much more relevant to them.