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Agreed. The thinking is societal collapse = bad; Orange Man = bad; so Orange Man = societal collapse. Honestly, it's exhausting at this point no matter what y

Agreed. The thinking is societal collapse = bad; Orange Man = bad; so Orange Man = societal collapse. Honestly, it's exhausting at this point no matter what you think of Trump.

ahartmetz 5y ago
If more than 40% of US citizens believe the IMO blindingly obvious lie that the last election was stolen, there is a real problem. A society needs trust to work. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-bide...
- t-3 5y ago
  > A society needs trust to work. Does it? Seems to me that most people don't, and never have trusted each other.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Does it? Seems to me that most people don't, and never have trusted each other Most people don't need to trust each other. The elites certainly do, at the very least, to respect the peaceful transfer of power. Democracies have, by design, lots of elites, so the coördination problem becomes (intentionally) more difficult.
- hallway_monitor 5y ago
  A society does need trust. The US is losing that trust which is worrying. The almost-majority who doubt election integrity is a symptom of that, not the cause. When it's 60% who have doubts, is it still a "blindingly obvious lie"? What about 80%?
ModernMech 5y ago
Today is January 7th. One year ago today, they were still at the Capitol grounds picking up Confederate flags, cleaning up Swastikas, and sweeping up truckloads of Trump 2020 paraphernalia. For the last year, hundreds of Trump’s foot soldiers have been flowing through the criminal justice system, one after another pleading that they were only there that day fighting for the former President at his direction. Today, one year later, the evidence is clear about what the plot was. Actually it was all admitted to on live TV and even had a name: “The Green Bay Sweep” - pretend there was fraud, and lie about it profusely. - GOP Reps and Senators challenge specific states, baselessly. - Pence rejects the certification, assuming powers he doesn’t have (but who would stop him?) - states baselessly reject election results and choose Trump instead - Contested election is thrown to House - Majority Republican delegations install Trump as President, thereby officially ending American democracy. Of course at the last moment, Pence refused to be part of this plan, because he knew what they wanted him to do was unconstitutional. Hence the Capitol insurrection. Hence "Hang Mike Pence". Whether that equates to societal collapse, I don’t know, but it does amount to tearing up and burning the Constitution.

Agreed. The thinking is societal collapse = bad; Orange Man = bad; so Orange Man = societal collapse. Honestly, it's exhausting at this point no matter what you think of Trump.

ahartmetz 5y ago

If more than 40% of US citizens believe the IMO blindingly obvious lie that the last election was stolen, there is a real problem. A society needs trust to work. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-bide...

t-3 5y ago
> A society needs trust to work. Does it? Seems to me that most people don't, and never have trusted each other.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Does it? Seems to me that most people don't, and never have trusted each other Most people don't need to trust each other. The elites certainly do, at the very least, to respect the peaceful transfer of power. Democracies have, by design, lots of elites, so the coördination problem becomes (intentionally) more difficult.
hallway_monitor 5y ago
A society does need trust. The US is losing that trust which is worrying. The almost-majority who doubt election integrity is a symptom of that, not the cause. When it's 60% who have doubts, is it still a "blindingly obvious lie"? What about 80%?

ModernMech 5y ago

Today is January 7th. One year ago today, they were still at the Capitol grounds picking up Confederate flags, cleaning up Swastikas, and sweeping up truckloads of Trump 2020 paraphernalia. For the last year, hundreds of Trump’s foot soldiers have been flowing through the criminal justice system, one after another pleading that they were only there that day fighting for the former President at his direction. Today, one year later, the evidence is clear about what the plot was. Actually it was all admitted to on live TV and even had a name: “The Green Bay Sweep” - pretend there was fraud, and lie about it profusely. - GOP Reps and Senators challenge specific states, baselessly. - Pence rejects the certification, assuming powers he doesn’t have (but who would stop him?) - states baselessly reject election results and choose Trump instead - Contested election is thrown to House - Majority Republican delegations install Trump as President, thereby officially ending American democracy. Of course at the last moment, Pence refused to be part of this plan, because he knew what they wanted him to do was unconstitutional. Hence the Capitol insurrection. Hence "Hang Mike Pence". Whether that equates to societal collapse, I don’t know, but it does amount to tearing up and burning the Constitution.