7 ms·

I’m waiting for amd to do TB4 so I can get a ryzen framework laptop.

Fnoord 5y ago
Yeah, AMD Ryzen Framework laptop would be amazing. (Would also have ECC support?) They'd have to license TB from Intel. I don't know about TB4, but TB3 is royalty-free, just gotta pass a certification. TB3 or better would be great for eGPUs in general. Not sure I personally would need TB4. Also, I wonder if Framework would be usable with say Proxmox and macOS (or 'native' Hackintosh?)
- fsflover 5y ago
  > AMD Ryzen Framework laptop would be amazing Except you cannot disable AMD PSP.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Lets compare it to all the other options, shall we? Perfect is the enemy of good, and your uncompromising way of doing things (including not loading microcode 'because it is closed source') is, to put it simple: harmful. And unusual, as well (its not a dealbreaker for many people). The laptop is modular and repairable, just like a Fairphone is modular and repairable. Its a great step forward and, while not perfect and possibly a reason to not buy it, a minor detail for most people. If we should follow FSF's principles we would not be able to load microcode to fix Spectre 'because it is proprietary' like Trisquel apparently does. Meanwhile, Librem 5 delivers awful performance, and Pinephone offer 30 days warranty. Both have killswitches though: great feature. Again, perfect is the enemy of good. Because if killswitches are a requirement for you, then these are about your two options. If a modular laptop is a requirement for you, you are bound to what? Old Thinkpads?
    - salawat 5y ago
      ...I'm more curious why firmware is even closed source. Seems to me, just releasing the assembler, documentation and a datasheet should be basic courtesy. Then again everything I think that way about is apparently a mortal sin in the business world.
      - loup-vaillant 5y ago
        I hear hardware vendors are scared shitless of running awful of other hardware vendor's patents. If they released their firmware, this would give other folks ammunitions to attack them in court. Personally, I don't care much about firmware being proprietary, if it cannot be used to meaningfully change the functionality of the chip. But I do care about the chip ultimately following a public specification. I want an ISA just like x86, ARM, or RISC-V. Tell me the size and format of the ring buffer I must write to or read from, and I'll program the rest. But even that is still too much to ask for apparently. Graphics cards are getting closer with lower level drivers like DX12 and Vulkan, but we're not quite there yet.
        salawat 5y ago
        Unfortunately, from my understanding, hardware innovation seems to be on a trajectory whereby it is exactly going toward the case that most functionality is "soft" and thereby fundamental changes can be wrought through microcode. Just look at Nvidia's use of FALCON's. Hardware manufacturers seemingly WANT to be able to use the same piece of hardware for different jobs, and having blobs tooled to reconfigure it is the way to go. My biggest problem is that figuring this state of affairs out is like pulling teeth.
        loup-vaillant 5y ago
        That’s the thing about microcoded machines: they’re fundamentally flexible. Even so, to be honest I don’t care too much about that. What I really want is a reliable, stable enough interface to the hardware. Besides, there are other ways to get that flexibility. CPUs for instance have a very flexible ISA: even if they’re set in stone, we can use them for pretty much anything, the only real limitation being performance. Now when I think about it, even if firmware can significantly change the functionality of a chip, I don’t care too much of it being proprietary. Not more than I care about fixed hardware being proprietary. It’s okay for a piece of hardware to have 3 or 10 different configurations, as long as (i) I can trust that each configuration works as advertised, and (ii) the ISA I got from each configuration is publicly documented. There’s a practical reason for this wish: hardware is typically orders of magnitude more reliable than software. That’s mostly because buggy software is easily updated, while flawed hardware is often impossible to sell. CPU bugs do happen, but they’re sufficiently few and far between that when my programs behave unexpectedly, I can safely assume it’s the software’s fault. I don’t want drivers any more, I want the hardware’s manual. https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > your uncompromising way of doing things (including not loading microcode 'because it is closed source') Libreboot disagrees with that: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-01/msg00019.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-.... Also, FSF would never endorse an Intel CPU with disabled Intel ME. It must be fully removed to get the RYF certification.
      - Fnoord 5y ago
        ..and still, a Fairphone is more free than almost every smartphone out there. And still, a Framework is more free than almost every laptop out there. Because they are easily repairable because of their modularity. Something, yes, Thinkpads used to be too. But you're bound to old, refurbished ones (X230/T430 apparently) [1]. You don't care about that, you only care about one thing, and the rest is seemingly rationalized as irrelevant. Again, perfect is the enemy of good, akin to release early, release often. [1] https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/certified-hardware/ https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/certified-hardware/
        fsflover 5y ago
        > Fairphone is more free than almost every smartphone out there Except it relies on proprietary drivers, which will not be updated by the vendor, resulting in a brick after some years. Librem 5 and Pinephone will receive software updates forever. > But you're bound to old, refurbished ones (X230/T430 apparently) [1]. Not necessarily: https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers/5560 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers.... > Librem 5 delivers awful performance What do you mean? It can run 3D games and provides full desktop mode. What else do you need?
        marcan_42 5y ago
        > Librem 5 Ah yes, that phone where the FSF told them they had to move a blob from the bootloader into an external Flash memory and load it through two layers of CPUs, because going through that pointless dance magically makes it Free™ (read: hidden enough that users won't notice so they won't realize they're still running a blob as part of something as critical as making the RAM work). Also that phone which runs a pile of other giant blobs, including the USB-PD controller and the baseband, of course.
- flatiron 5y ago
  if you are getting a framework to run a hackintosh why would you not get a macbook air? prolly cheaper in the long run and the M1 is a pretty great chip. i just can't wrap my hands around macOS and I used to work at apple. I'm just so used to linux for everything.
- flatiron 5y ago
  All RAM should be ECC. This intel ECC paywall is terrible. I have no actual need for ECC. My business is in cloud and personal doesn't really benefit too much from it.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  The ryzen 6000 series for laptops will support usb 4 with tb3. What does tb4 offer over 3?
  - stransky 5y ago
    longer cables
  - neogodless 5y ago
    https://plugable.com/blogs/news/what-s-the-difference-between-thunderbolt-3-thunderbolt-4-and-usb4 https://plugable.com/blogs/news/what-s-the-difference-betwee... The short answer for Thunderbolt 4 over Thunderbolt 3 is "a second 4K display" thanks to double the PCIe bandwidth, 16Gbps vs 32Gbps. (The main data channel is 40Gbps in both.) USB 4 is actually a bit more constrained than Thunderbolt 3, at 20Gbps data channel, and no guarantee of PCIe bandwidth. > Thunderbolt 4 guarantees support for one 8K display or two 4K displays. A USB4 port can only support one display with no mention of resolution minimums. And even that isn't required as some USB4 ports will not support video at all.
    - philliphaydon 5y ago
      So it sounds like TB3 + USB4 would be a good docking station, and TB4 just makes it a bit better. So I shouldn't be too worried if I upgrade my laptop and it only has TB3. Finding it hard to keep up with tech lately :D
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      Right now I use a machine with USB-C for video out at 1080p one monitor. But I don't use an eGPU with that, and its officially an Android device. I got 2x 1440p monitor and won't upgrade either any time soon. So I suppose if I were to use both of these, I'd be fine with TB3 and eGPU?
  - lsaferite 5y ago
    More guaranteed PCIe (32Gbps) bandwidth. Mandated wake from sleep over TB4 while closed. DMA Protection. It's mostly the same though and devices should be cross-compatible. Primarily you want TB4 for the stricter requirements for certification.

Yeah, AMD Ryzen Framework laptop would be amazing. (Would also have ECC support?) They'd have to license TB from Intel. I don't know about TB4, but TB3 is royalty-free, just gotta pass a certification. TB3 or better would be great for eGPUs in general. Not sure I personally would need TB4. Also, I wonder if Framework would be usable with say Proxmox and macOS (or 'native' Hackintosh?)

fsflover 5y ago
> AMD Ryzen Framework laptop would be amazing Except you cannot disable AMD PSP.
- Fnoord 5y ago
  Lets compare it to all the other options, shall we? Perfect is the enemy of good, and your uncompromising way of doing things (including not loading microcode 'because it is closed source') is, to put it simple: harmful. And unusual, as well (its not a dealbreaker for many people). The laptop is modular and repairable, just like a Fairphone is modular and repairable. Its a great step forward and, while not perfect and possibly a reason to not buy it, a minor detail for most people. If we should follow FSF's principles we would not be able to load microcode to fix Spectre 'because it is proprietary' like Trisquel apparently does. Meanwhile, Librem 5 delivers awful performance, and Pinephone offer 30 days warranty. Both have killswitches though: great feature. Again, perfect is the enemy of good. Because if killswitches are a requirement for you, then these are about your two options. If a modular laptop is a requirement for you, you are bound to what? Old Thinkpads?
  - salawat 5y ago
    ...I'm more curious why firmware is even closed source. Seems to me, just releasing the assembler, documentation and a datasheet should be basic courtesy. Then again everything I think that way about is apparently a mortal sin in the business world.
    - loup-vaillant 5y ago
      I hear hardware vendors are scared shitless of running awful of other hardware vendor's patents. If they released their firmware, this would give other folks ammunitions to attack them in court. Personally, I don't care much about firmware being proprietary, if it cannot be used to meaningfully change the functionality of the chip. But I do care about the chip ultimately following a public specification. I want an ISA just like x86, ARM, or RISC-V. Tell me the size and format of the ring buffer I must write to or read from, and I'll program the rest. But even that is still too much to ask for apparently. Graphics cards are getting closer with lower level drivers like DX12 and Vulkan, but we're not quite there yet.
      - salawat 5y ago
        Unfortunately, from my understanding, hardware innovation seems to be on a trajectory whereby it is exactly going toward the case that most functionality is "soft" and thereby fundamental changes can be wrought through microcode. Just look at Nvidia's use of FALCON's. Hardware manufacturers seemingly WANT to be able to use the same piece of hardware for different jobs, and having blobs tooled to reconfigure it is the way to go. My biggest problem is that figuring this state of affairs out is like pulling teeth.
        loup-vaillant 5y ago
        That’s the thing about microcoded machines: they’re fundamentally flexible. Even so, to be honest I don’t care too much about that. What I really want is a reliable, stable enough interface to the hardware. Besides, there are other ways to get that flexibility. CPUs for instance have a very flexible ISA: even if they’re set in stone, we can use them for pretty much anything, the only real limitation being performance. Now when I think about it, even if firmware can significantly change the functionality of a chip, I don’t care too much of it being proprietary. Not more than I care about fixed hardware being proprietary. It’s okay for a piece of hardware to have 3 or 10 different configurations, as long as (i) I can trust that each configuration works as advertised, and (ii) the ISA I got from each configuration is publicly documented. There’s a practical reason for this wish: hardware is typically orders of magnitude more reliable than software. That’s mostly because buggy software is easily updated, while flawed hardware is often impossible to sell. CPU bugs do happen, but they’re sufficiently few and far between that when my programs behave unexpectedly, I can safely assume it’s the software’s fault. I don’t want drivers any more, I want the hardware’s manual. https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > your uncompromising way of doing things (including not loading microcode 'because it is closed source') Libreboot disagrees with that: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-01/msg00019.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-.... Also, FSF would never endorse an Intel CPU with disabled Intel ME. It must be fully removed to get the RYF certification.
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      ..and still, a Fairphone is more free than almost every smartphone out there. And still, a Framework is more free than almost every laptop out there. Because they are easily repairable because of their modularity. Something, yes, Thinkpads used to be too. But you're bound to old, refurbished ones (X230/T430 apparently) [1]. You don't care about that, you only care about one thing, and the rest is seemingly rationalized as irrelevant. Again, perfect is the enemy of good, akin to release early, release often. [1] https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/certified-hardware/ https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/certified-hardware/
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > Fairphone is more free than almost every smartphone out there Except it relies on proprietary drivers, which will not be updated by the vendor, resulting in a brick after some years. Librem 5 and Pinephone will receive software updates forever. > But you're bound to old, refurbished ones (X230/T430 apparently) [1]. Not necessarily: https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers/5560 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers.... > Librem 5 delivers awful performance What do you mean? It can run 3D games and provides full desktop mode. What else do you need?
        marcan_42 5y ago
        > Librem 5 Ah yes, that phone where the FSF told them they had to move a blob from the bootloader into an external Flash memory and load it through two layers of CPUs, because going through that pointless dance magically makes it Free™ (read: hidden enough that users won't notice so they won't realize they're still running a blob as part of something as critical as making the RAM work). Also that phone which runs a pile of other giant blobs, including the USB-PD controller and the baseband, of course.
flatiron 5y ago
if you are getting a framework to run a hackintosh why would you not get a macbook air? prolly cheaper in the long run and the M1 is a pretty great chip. i just can't wrap my hands around macOS and I used to work at apple. I'm just so used to linux for everything.
flatiron 5y ago
All RAM should be ECC. This intel ECC paywall is terrible. I have no actual need for ECC. My business is in cloud and personal doesn't really benefit too much from it.
philliphaydon 5y ago
The ryzen 6000 series for laptops will support usb 4 with tb3. What does tb4 offer over 3?
- stransky 5y ago
  longer cables
- neogodless 5y ago
  https://plugable.com/blogs/news/what-s-the-difference-between-thunderbolt-3-thunderbolt-4-and-usb4 https://plugable.com/blogs/news/what-s-the-difference-betwee... The short answer for Thunderbolt 4 over Thunderbolt 3 is "a second 4K display" thanks to double the PCIe bandwidth, 16Gbps vs 32Gbps. (The main data channel is 40Gbps in both.) USB 4 is actually a bit more constrained than Thunderbolt 3, at 20Gbps data channel, and no guarantee of PCIe bandwidth. > Thunderbolt 4 guarantees support for one 8K display or two 4K displays. A USB4 port can only support one display with no mention of resolution minimums. And even that isn't required as some USB4 ports will not support video at all.
  - philliphaydon 5y ago
    So it sounds like TB3 + USB4 would be a good docking station, and TB4 just makes it a bit better. So I shouldn't be too worried if I upgrade my laptop and it only has TB3. Finding it hard to keep up with tech lately :D
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Right now I use a machine with USB-C for video out at 1080p one monitor. But I don't use an eGPU with that, and its officially an Android device. I got 2x 1440p monitor and won't upgrade either any time soon. So I suppose if I were to use both of these, I'd be fine with TB3 and eGPU?
- lsaferite 5y ago
  More guaranteed PCIe (32Gbps) bandwidth. Mandated wake from sleep over TB4 while closed. DMA Protection. It's mostly the same though and devices should be cross-compatible. Primarily you want TB4 for the stricter requirements for certification.