6 ms·

Almost as many security forces have died as protesters according to this. Why is the title being dramatized to make it sound like Tienanmen?

underscore_ku 5y ago
"Almost as many security forces have died as protesters according to this" source?
- mtmail 5y ago
  The article mentions it "The interior ministry says 26 "armed criminals" and 18 security officers have been killed so far in the unrest. "
  - underscore_ku 5y ago
    i mean, real independent sources.
    - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
      Define "real independent sources".
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    The local sources in social media all were mentioning protester fatality numbers in hundreds. They are definitely not reliable, however, I would consider the official numbers reported by KZ government - which BBC is quoting - as even less trustworthy than random social media posts. Until we have better data I think that it is entirely appropriate to treat all current data from KZ government as intentionally falsified and either apply a reasonable multiplier (historically from other similar cases, a 10x multiplier seems appropriate; certainly that would be a better estimate than accepting their reports at face value, in similar earlier situations the reports always have been intentionally adjusted) or treat the local estimates as the best estimates currently available.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Are you for real? FFS... Read the article, it's in there.
  - underscore_ku 5y ago
    are you? real source not government propaganda.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Considering the article is trying to make the KZ government look bad, I'd say the part that appears less biased is relevant. The whole point of HN is to comment on the article. BBC is obviously UK government propaganda, so the fact their headline is clickbait and the little data they do include doesn't support it is relevant.
      - relativ575 5y ago
        The data is included because there not much verifiable source to come by. Think about your logic -- BBC is UK propaganda who wants to make Kazakhstan look bad, yet they cited government's number and quoted the president, not anyone from the protesters? The government is a party of the conflict, yet you consider their reported number believable?
      - PicassoCTs 5y ago
        Why should the UK-propaganda even have a stance on Kazakhstan? This sound like the usual russian troll approach of "Everyone does everything, so bad is relative" fog grenade. Russia seems to be pretty run-down lately in the east. Especially with Chinese investments basically buying out the usual province robber barons and slowly replacing the owner-caste.
        Mikeb85 5y ago
        Kazakhstan's current government is a Russian ally. You surely have seen all the western hostility towards Russia in the news lately, right?
dane-pgp 5y ago
You mean "according to the interior ministry". Of course the government will make it sound like it is the real victim here (while also celebrating its Kill to Death Ratio). The government also claims there are "20,000 bandits" who it "[has] to destroy ... soon". Comparison to Tienanmen could be an understatement, if the government achieves its goals.
- sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
  Are you willing to say that all the violent and armed (and properly filmed and documented) clashes + captures of airports and govt buildings were only done by the police/army themselves? This is really wild.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    No, I'm saying that if there are really 20,000 armed fighters trying to take over the country, then the government should admit that it's fighting a civil war.
    - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
      Not exactly if such fighters are largely armed/supported by foreign groups or powers or entities. Which is quite obviously often the case.
    - rasz 5y ago
      >if there are really 20,000 armed fighters we would see some pictures of them, so far the only armed fighters Iv seen were in Russian uniforms shooting on a move in a column of Kamaz Typhoons
      - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
        This is what you're shown or what you want to see. I've seen a lot of videos of armed rebels. BTW, the video you are referring to is NOT Russian uniforms, it is Kazakhstan army. This is again a sample of propaganda you receive. The uniforms are completely different.

underscore_ku 5y ago

"Almost as many security forces have died as protesters according to this" source?

mtmail 5y ago
The article mentions it "The interior ministry says 26 "armed criminals" and 18 security officers have been killed so far in the unrest. "
- underscore_ku 5y ago
  i mean, real independent sources.
  - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
    Define "real independent sources".
- PeterisP 5y ago
  The local sources in social media all were mentioning protester fatality numbers in hundreds. They are definitely not reliable, however, I would consider the official numbers reported by KZ government - which BBC is quoting - as even less trustworthy than random social media posts. Until we have better data I think that it is entirely appropriate to treat all current data from KZ government as intentionally falsified and either apply a reasonable multiplier (historically from other similar cases, a 10x multiplier seems appropriate; certainly that would be a better estimate than accepting their reports at face value, in similar earlier situations the reports always have been intentionally adjusted) or treat the local estimates as the best estimates currently available.
Mikeb85 5y ago
Are you for real? FFS... Read the article, it's in there.
- underscore_ku 5y ago
  are you? real source not government propaganda.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Considering the article is trying to make the KZ government look bad, I'd say the part that appears less biased is relevant. The whole point of HN is to comment on the article. BBC is obviously UK government propaganda, so the fact their headline is clickbait and the little data they do include doesn't support it is relevant.
    - relativ575 5y ago
      The data is included because there not much verifiable source to come by. Think about your logic -- BBC is UK propaganda who wants to make Kazakhstan look bad, yet they cited government's number and quoted the president, not anyone from the protesters? The government is a party of the conflict, yet you consider their reported number believable?
    - PicassoCTs 5y ago
      Why should the UK-propaganda even have a stance on Kazakhstan? This sound like the usual russian troll approach of "Everyone does everything, so bad is relative" fog grenade. Russia seems to be pretty run-down lately in the east. Especially with Chinese investments basically buying out the usual province robber barons and slowly replacing the owner-caste.
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        Kazakhstan's current government is a Russian ally. You surely have seen all the western hostility towards Russia in the news lately, right?

dane-pgp 5y ago

You mean "according to the interior ministry". Of course the government will make it sound like it is the real victim here (while also celebrating its Kill to Death Ratio). The government also claims there are "20,000 bandits" who it "[has] to destroy ... soon". Comparison to Tienanmen could be an understatement, if the government achieves its goals.

sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
Are you willing to say that all the violent and armed (and properly filmed and documented) clashes + captures of airports and govt buildings were only done by the police/army themselves? This is really wild.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  No, I'm saying that if there are really 20,000 armed fighters trying to take over the country, then the government should admit that it's fighting a civil war.
  - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
    Not exactly if such fighters are largely armed/supported by foreign groups or powers or entities. Which is quite obviously often the case.
  - rasz 5y ago
    >if there are really 20,000 armed fighters we would see some pictures of them, so far the only armed fighters Iv seen were in Russian uniforms shooting on a move in a column of Kamaz Typhoons
    - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
      This is what you're shown or what you want to see. I've seen a lot of videos of armed rebels. BTW, the video you are referring to is NOT Russian uniforms, it is Kazakhstan army. This is again a sample of propaganda you receive. The uniforms are completely different.