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Okay. Cropping requires nutrient inputs though, and there's not much way around that. Nitrogen fixing and such are helpful but not able to supply all requiremen

Okay. Cropping requires nutrient inputs though, and there's not much way around that. Nitrogen fixing and such are helpful but not able to supply all requirements. Composting and this kind of organic farming is a nice boutique niche, but realistically it would be unable to sustain the food requirements of the world without being prohibitively expensive. Fertilizers based on petroleum and other mined minerals is the only options for that.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
I’m making a solar powered farming robot that is open source and designed to help perform some of the labor that makes these processes more expensive. (See my profile). There are other ways to solve the problems currently solved by chemical inputs. And there are many examples of functional biodynamic organic farming systems all over the world that suggest we can scale it if we want to. We’ve just been addicted to cheap fertilizer. It’s interesting to think about where the money goes in our society. Let’s say we never broke up unions in the USA, and wages rose along with productivity instead of stagnating after 1980. Then we could be using more expensive farming methods, which make healthier communities, and yet people would be able to afford it. This is perhaps more similar to how things are done in France, for example. There’s a lot that goes in to making any commodity relatively cheap or expensive. I think probably healthy soils and healthy foods are worth paying more, but we should make sure our economy functions in a way that everyone can afford food, of course.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > There are other ways to solve the problems currently solved by chemical inputs. What is one way? > And there are many examples of functional biodynamic organic farming systems all over the world that suggest we can scale it if we want to. We’ve just been addicted to cheap fertilizer. People need food to live and lots of people don't have much money. It's very easy to say we're addicted to cheap fertilizer when you can afford to pay premiums for your biodynamic organic food. Billions of people do not have that privilege.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    I had intended to suggest that solar powered farming robots are one way to reduce costs. As far as people’s ability to pay, you seem to have glossed over my section where I point out that it is policy decisions, not some natural occurrence, that leaves so many unable to pay more. This is true both for within the United States where I live, and for the world at large. Whether or not people can afford higher food prices is something we have control over. We could ease restrictions on collective bargaining and unions could petition for their wages to increase. You may think that is a bad idea, but nonetheless you’d have to agree that is a policy decision that could result in higher wages. And so, whether or not “we” can afford to buy more expensive food is not out of our control.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Well I didn't consider machinery improvements to be an alternative to chemical input cost reduction, but I guess if they reduce costs then it is the same end goal that's true. But I think the nutrient input will still be required in the form of petroleum and mineral based fertilizers though because alternatives to that I think are not only very costly, probably much more than total machinery and fuel costs now (which are roughly on-par with fertilizer inputs of the cheap stuff today), so I don't know if you could make up for the entire cost difference. If you did with your machines, I guess you would still get people wanting the cost savings of cheap fertlizers. I also don't know if they would scale enough to provide enough food.
      - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
        Fertilizer is not a neutral product. Adding fertilizer destroys the biodiversity of the soil leading to sicker plants and the need for even more additives in the form of pesticides and fungicides to stave off problems caused by unhealthy soils. So ideally you would replace chemical intensive farming with regenerative organic. Regenerative organic does require more hand labor. What I am saying is that robots could reduce the labor requirement, making it easier to scale regenerative organic. There are a whole host of benefits to this process, cost is not the only concern. In fact people are willing to pay more for their products. See this 5 part lecture if you want to understand the process I am talking about end to end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBUOdv2vn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBUOdv2vn8

TaylorAlexander 5y ago

I’m making a solar powered farming robot that is open source and designed to help perform some of the labor that makes these processes more expensive. (See my profile). There are other ways to solve the problems currently solved by chemical inputs. And there are many examples of functional biodynamic organic farming systems all over the world that suggest we can scale it if we want to. We’ve just been addicted to cheap fertilizer. It’s interesting to think about where the money goes in our society. Let’s say we never broke up unions in the USA, and wages rose along with productivity instead of stagnating after 1980. Then we could be using more expensive farming methods, which make healthier communities, and yet people would be able to afford it. This is perhaps more similar to how things are done in France, for example. There’s a lot that goes in to making any commodity relatively cheap or expensive. I think probably healthy soils and healthy foods are worth paying more, but we should make sure our economy functions in a way that everyone can afford food, of course.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> There are other ways to solve the problems currently solved by chemical inputs. What is one way? > And there are many examples of functional biodynamic organic farming systems all over the world that suggest we can scale it if we want to. We’ve just been addicted to cheap fertilizer. People need food to live and lots of people don't have much money. It's very easy to say we're addicted to cheap fertilizer when you can afford to pay premiums for your biodynamic organic food. Billions of people do not have that privilege.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  I had intended to suggest that solar powered farming robots are one way to reduce costs. As far as people’s ability to pay, you seem to have glossed over my section where I point out that it is policy decisions, not some natural occurrence, that leaves so many unable to pay more. This is true both for within the United States where I live, and for the world at large. Whether or not people can afford higher food prices is something we have control over. We could ease restrictions on collective bargaining and unions could petition for their wages to increase. You may think that is a bad idea, but nonetheless you’d have to agree that is a policy decision that could result in higher wages. And so, whether or not “we” can afford to buy more expensive food is not out of our control.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Well I didn't consider machinery improvements to be an alternative to chemical input cost reduction, but I guess if they reduce costs then it is the same end goal that's true. But I think the nutrient input will still be required in the form of petroleum and mineral based fertilizers though because alternatives to that I think are not only very costly, probably much more than total machinery and fuel costs now (which are roughly on-par with fertilizer inputs of the cheap stuff today), so I don't know if you could make up for the entire cost difference. If you did with your machines, I guess you would still get people wanting the cost savings of cheap fertlizers. I also don't know if they would scale enough to provide enough food.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Fertilizer is not a neutral product. Adding fertilizer destroys the biodiversity of the soil leading to sicker plants and the need for even more additives in the form of pesticides and fungicides to stave off problems caused by unhealthy soils. So ideally you would replace chemical intensive farming with regenerative organic. Regenerative organic does require more hand labor. What I am saying is that robots could reduce the labor requirement, making it easier to scale regenerative organic. There are a whole host of benefits to this process, cost is not the only concern. In fact people are willing to pay more for their products. See this 5 part lecture if you want to understand the process I am talking about end to end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBUOdv2vn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBUOdv2vn8