7 ms·

> Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. Let me guess... have you mostly experienced life in developed countries with relativel

> Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. Let me guess... have you mostly experienced life in developed countries with relatively stable financial system, non-fluctuating consumer goods prices? There are a ton of people living under extremely corrupt and dysfunctional financial systems, whose #1 concern in life is to make sure their purchasing power does not disappear the next day. For them, land, gold, and bitcoin solve a problem. Americans with simplistic "I <3 Bernanke" opinions sure assume that will "worsen" stuff; true or not, it is irrelevant to the individual in such countries who will keep on trying hard to accumulate every non-cash asset they can get their hands on.

ShamelessC 5y ago
And what happens when the internet goes out? https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power-slumps-kazakhstan-crackdown-hits-crypto-miners-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power...
- jslove 5y ago
  there were a couple implementations of stellar blockchain projects in nigeria that used sms as a base technology.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  Crypto can work quite ok-ish if the internet goes out. You can still post transactions (effectively issue IOUs with some level of assurance the funds existed in the wallet at moment you got disconnected, but no protection against double spend), but the confirmations will take a while. Visa is as bad or worse. When you live in a, for lack of a better word, "shithole country", you don't plan too long into the future; you play it by ear and find a way to live the next day. One thing to note, though, is that once a technology entrenches the black/gray markets in a society, the rulers and their sons and daughters are almost certainly participants too, and that reduces the incentive/ability to shut things down completely.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Diversification. Why on earth would you bet all your eggs on crypto? Hold a little gold or fiat or just tradeable commodities but don't give up on crypto just because of power outages. You don't throw away your PC just because the power goes out sometimes.
- mthoms 5y ago
  The same thing that happens when the Visa network "goes out". That particular payment type is unavailable until the issue is resolved. https://www.wired.com/story/visa-outage-shows-the-fragility-of-global-payments/ https://www.wired.com/story/visa-outage-shows-the-fragility-...
  - kuschku 5y ago
    GiroCard can work around that, by transferring metadata for pre-authorized ampunts of money to the card and attaching cryptographically signed certificates proving the existence of funds to transactions. But no one cares about useful traditional financial products, as you can't create a ponzi scheme fueled by money laundering with useful traditional products.
    - mthoms 5y ago
      GiroCard sounds neat. Will have to look into it. >But no one cares about useful traditional financial products, as you can't create a ponzi scheme fueled by money laundering with useful traditional products. You can't create a ponzi scheme or perform money laundering with traditional financial products? Really? That's your claim? I'm not here to defend crypto, but let's keep the discussion factual.
      - kuschku 5y ago
        > You can't create a ponzi scheme or perform money laundering with traditional financial products? Really? That's your claim? > I'm not here to defend crypto, but let's keep the discussion factual. You can’t speculate on the currency itself, driving its value up and down as part of your own ponzi scheme. Or rather, for major currencies you can’t. Maybe you can manipulate tiny currencies of tiny nations that way, but those usually end up using the EUR or USD anyway.
rmbyrro 5y ago
I have the impression this shittyness is inevitably coming towards the U.S., so Americans won't stay in ignorance for too long.
- passerby1 5y ago
  Actually, for some part of the population the "shittyness" could be there already, depending on its definition.
ajross 5y ago
> There are a ton of people living under extremely corrupt and dysfunctional financial systems Those aren't the people using crypto, though. And to the extent that people are using crypto as alternative to their local currency, they're almost all using it for some form of laundering (e.g. wealth extraction from the PRC). Objectively, crypto has been far more volatile than fiat currencies as a whole, not less. BTC is literally down 16% over the last three weeks! If you want stability just buy a bunch of diverse money market or national bond securities; that strategy survived the great depression and WW2, it can surely handle a pandemic recovery.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>Those aren't the people using crypto, though. How do you know? >>And to the extent that people are using crypto as alternative to their local currency, they're almost all using it for some form of laundering (e.g. wealth extraction from the PRC). Laundering in a country like the PRC with extreme capital controls is not necessarily a moral evil. It could very well just be an attempt to guard wealth from a repressive government that is known to confiscate the wealth of those who fall out of favor with the political elite. By arguing against crypto, you are arguing for the PRC having more control over the people of China. But I guess that's par for the course for the anti-crypto crowd. >>Objectively, crypto has been far more volatile than fiat currencies as a whole, not less. Stablecoins are not volatile, and their usage is skyrocketing: https://techstory.in/inflation-jumps-to-36-in-turkey-liras-value-plummets-citizens-flock-to-stablecoins/ https://techstory.in/inflation-jumps-to-36-in-turkey-liras-v...
  - kuschku 5y ago
    Guarding wealth is a moral evil, as inherited wealth is a major cause of inequality.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Wealth is why we enjoy the quality of life that we do. The spread of private property and contracting rights, and the consequent rise in wealth, is credited for the largest reduction in poverty in human history: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-politically-incorrect-guide-to-ending-poverty/308134/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-pol... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-global-war-on-poverty https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-gl... https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end... Extreme poverty is a much greater evil than inequality.
hooande 5y ago
how do they get their money out of crypto? they have to convert it back to fiat in order to spend it. can't the government impose whatever rules they want at that step, like the US government does? and how is crypto better than gold or equities for this purpose?
- mehrdada 5y ago
  - how do they get their money out of crypto? (they have to convert it back to fiat in order to spend it is an incorrect assumption, increasingly so even in the US) They transfer it to someone else/currency exchange location (if not totally banned) and get cash when they need to purchase something, or directly barter with crypto. You don't always need to exchange it with fiat. In such environments, often crypto payment would be superior to cash. (BTW this is not unique to crypto. People could utilize USD/EUR in countries with crappy currencies.) - can't the government impose whatever rules they want at that step, like the US government does? I suppose no one does something illegal ever. /s This is the thing that is hard to comprehend for people in countries where "following the law" is somehow considered absolutely moral and also a reasonable burden. There are jurisdictions that you cannot survive without breaking some law every second. Using VPN to circumvent internet censorship is also illegal in countries with such conduct but regular people do that anyway. - how is crypto better than gold or equities for this purpose? Gold and equities, and most importantly land used to partially serve those purposes, depending on the jurisdiction. Crypto is an alternative with pros and cons. The major pro is difficulty of confiscation and ease of transfer across borders if the country destabilizes and you want to immigrate. It helps with geopolitical diversification of assets.

ShamelessC 5y ago

And what happens when the internet goes out? https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power-slumps-kazakhstan-crackdown-hits-crypto-miners-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power...

jslove 5y ago
there were a couple implementations of stellar blockchain projects in nigeria that used sms as a base technology.
mehrdada 5y ago
Crypto can work quite ok-ish if the internet goes out. You can still post transactions (effectively issue IOUs with some level of assurance the funds existed in the wallet at moment you got disconnected, but no protection against double spend), but the confirmations will take a while. Visa is as bad or worse. When you live in a, for lack of a better word, "shithole country", you don't plan too long into the future; you play it by ear and find a way to live the next day. One thing to note, though, is that once a technology entrenches the black/gray markets in a society, the rulers and their sons and daughters are almost certainly participants too, and that reduces the incentive/ability to shut things down completely.
notch656a 5y ago
Diversification. Why on earth would you bet all your eggs on crypto? Hold a little gold or fiat or just tradeable commodities but don't give up on crypto just because of power outages. You don't throw away your PC just because the power goes out sometimes.
mthoms 5y ago
The same thing that happens when the Visa network "goes out". That particular payment type is unavailable until the issue is resolved. https://www.wired.com/story/visa-outage-shows-the-fragility-of-global-payments/ https://www.wired.com/story/visa-outage-shows-the-fragility-...
- kuschku 5y ago
  GiroCard can work around that, by transferring metadata for pre-authorized ampunts of money to the card and attaching cryptographically signed certificates proving the existence of funds to transactions. But no one cares about useful traditional financial products, as you can't create a ponzi scheme fueled by money laundering with useful traditional products.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    GiroCard sounds neat. Will have to look into it. >But no one cares about useful traditional financial products, as you can't create a ponzi scheme fueled by money laundering with useful traditional products. You can't create a ponzi scheme or perform money laundering with traditional financial products? Really? That's your claim? I'm not here to defend crypto, but let's keep the discussion factual.
    - kuschku 5y ago
      > You can't create a ponzi scheme or perform money laundering with traditional financial products? Really? That's your claim? > I'm not here to defend crypto, but let's keep the discussion factual. You can’t speculate on the currency itself, driving its value up and down as part of your own ponzi scheme. Or rather, for major currencies you can’t. Maybe you can manipulate tiny currencies of tiny nations that way, but those usually end up using the EUR or USD anyway.

rmbyrro 5y ago

I have the impression this shittyness is inevitably coming towards the U.S., so Americans won't stay in ignorance for too long.

passerby1 5y ago
Actually, for some part of the population the "shittyness" could be there already, depending on its definition.

ajross 5y ago

> There are a ton of people living under extremely corrupt and dysfunctional financial systems Those aren't the people using crypto, though. And to the extent that people are using crypto as alternative to their local currency, they're almost all using it for some form of laundering (e.g. wealth extraction from the PRC). Objectively, crypto has been far more volatile than fiat currencies as a whole, not less. BTC is literally down 16% over the last three weeks! If you want stability just buy a bunch of diverse money market or national bond securities; that strategy survived the great depression and WW2, it can surely handle a pandemic recovery.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
>>Those aren't the people using crypto, though. How do you know? >>And to the extent that people are using crypto as alternative to their local currency, they're almost all using it for some form of laundering (e.g. wealth extraction from the PRC). Laundering in a country like the PRC with extreme capital controls is not necessarily a moral evil. It could very well just be an attempt to guard wealth from a repressive government that is known to confiscate the wealth of those who fall out of favor with the political elite. By arguing against crypto, you are arguing for the PRC having more control over the people of China. But I guess that's par for the course for the anti-crypto crowd. >>Objectively, crypto has been far more volatile than fiat currencies as a whole, not less. Stablecoins are not volatile, and their usage is skyrocketing: https://techstory.in/inflation-jumps-to-36-in-turkey-liras-value-plummets-citizens-flock-to-stablecoins/ https://techstory.in/inflation-jumps-to-36-in-turkey-liras-v...
- kuschku 5y ago
  Guarding wealth is a moral evil, as inherited wealth is a major cause of inequality.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Wealth is why we enjoy the quality of life that we do. The spread of private property and contracting rights, and the consequent rise in wealth, is credited for the largest reduction in poverty in human history: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-politically-incorrect-guide-to-ending-poverty/308134/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-pol... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-global-war-on-poverty https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-gl... https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end... Extreme poverty is a much greater evil than inequality.

hooande 5y ago

how do they get their money out of crypto? they have to convert it back to fiat in order to spend it. can't the government impose whatever rules they want at that step, like the US government does? and how is crypto better than gold or equities for this purpose?

mehrdada 5y ago
- how do they get their money out of crypto? (they have to convert it back to fiat in order to spend it is an incorrect assumption, increasingly so even in the US) They transfer it to someone else/currency exchange location (if not totally banned) and get cash when they need to purchase something, or directly barter with crypto. You don't always need to exchange it with fiat. In such environments, often crypto payment would be superior to cash. (BTW this is not unique to crypto. People could utilize USD/EUR in countries with crappy currencies.) - can't the government impose whatever rules they want at that step, like the US government does? I suppose no one does something illegal ever. /s This is the thing that is hard to comprehend for people in countries where "following the law" is somehow considered absolutely moral and also a reasonable burden. There are jurisdictions that you cannot survive without breaking some law every second. Using VPN to circumvent internet censorship is also illegal in countries with such conduct but regular people do that anyway. - how is crypto better than gold or equities for this purpose? Gold and equities, and most importantly land used to partially serve those purposes, depending on the jurisdiction. Crypto is an alternative with pros and cons. The major pro is difficulty of confiscation and ease of transfer across borders if the country destabilizes and you want to immigrate. It helps with geopolitical diversification of assets.