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This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or

by oramit 5y ago

This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice my manager was shocked. He's a good guy but he was also my boss which means he's only going to pay me enough to stay. Just accept that fact and move on. Match your notice period to the handover period - I'm sorry but everything about this section is wrong. Nothing you are working on is so important that you can't put it in a good state for someone else to pick up in your absence in two weeks. You stayed for 10 months? I can't tell if you or your employer was the one being strung along. "Your new role, if you have one arranged, should respect your decision to be professional about your handover period. They’ll wait, don’t worry." No - The hiring market for developers is red hot right now, no doubt about it, but potential employers are not going to sit around with a position open for months. Potential employers are not going to be impressed at your loyalty to a previous employer. They will think you are wasting their time and will probably be working to put someone else in that position while you dawdle. The two weeks notice period is the conventional standard and everyone knows what it means. Stick to that and you'll be fine.

gleenn 5y ago
They actually stated 10 months was way too long and cited many reasons. So that's not advice, that's reporting what didn't work well. I think we're all on the same page here 10 months is way too long including TFA.
delgaudm 5y ago
Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they will keep you in the dark. You won't know plans until they want you to know plans. They have to. It's the only way it works. You, as the employee, need to play the same game in the same way. Defensively. Know that you can keep information from them. Know you should only give information that is beneficial to you. Never self- sabotage. Never be weak. Business is a ruthless competitive game, and that includes employee to manager. You have no obligation to be honest in an exit interview. If it sucked horribly, leave with a smile and say it was great. Make it so they'll give you a great recommendation for your next gig. Lie to them like they lie to you. Bluff. Play chess, play poker. You don't have to care one whit about leaving your teammates with more work. Does the company give one shit about laying you off a week before Christmas with zero notice? No. They don't give a care at all about the disarray this causes for your life. Ultimately you are a cog, and disposable. You are not "the most valuable resource". You must be as ruthless with them as they are with you. It's the only way it works. Sure, this sounds super cyncial, you can absolutely do this and not be a dick. You don't have to be a dick at all, just think strategically, and know that you are the only one looking out for you, and you don't owe anyone anything.
- deagle50 5y ago
  This is the way.
- avidiax 5y ago
  There are people that will dismiss this as overly cynical because of the presentation. But it is true. In a big company, the VP of whatever department may feel bad about a layoff before Christmas, but they don't know you personally, and whatever numbers or major investors are motivating this don't lie. In a small company, the same is true. They might wait until things are hopeless instead of trending to hopeless, but either way, they'll lay you off when it makes sense for them. You might like your boss, but informing them well in advance of a departure is generally not a good move. Nice as they may be, they can't unknow that knowledge, and it will affect all their decisions going forward. And you, who are so sure you are leaving, may find that your outside offer is rescinded the week before Christmas (see above). 2 weeks is a reasonable courtesy and an acceptable risk. If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Agreed with everything you and OP wrote until your very last line: “ If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.” Now that’s being a dick. Looking out for yourself does not mean being a dick.
    - chottocharaii 5y ago
      Hey, if they’re willing to pay that much for it; charging any less is charity
      - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
        I don’t know your situation, but it could also be construed as blackmail depending on the circumstances.
tessierashpool 5y ago
> This post is filled with bad and naive advice. it's also got a very silly title. the way a boss quits is they sell the company.
devwastaken 5y ago
Potential employers are sitting on empty positions, all the time. The market is not "red hot" unless you have the resume. This is continually demonstrated time and again as CS students struggle to enter the job market. We whom are paid for our work live in a bubble of success that by it's nature does not get to see the failure. If companies were actually struggling they would fund education and find people to hire. Overwhelmingly tech refuses to fund education and is heavily competed over for job positions and internships. Just like every company says they make the best products, they say they're always hiring.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jamesbrady 5y ago
To be honest I think we agree about more than you make it seem! What you did at your last job sounds exactly right to me – you were giving good feedback about what you needed, and when it wasn't heeded you left. Your manager didn't (or wasn't able to) hold up their side of that conversation and you moved to the "you should have left anyway" box. Doesn't sound fun, but we're in agreement on the steps there. The 10 months thing seems to have tripped a few people up… I might try to rephrase that? Note that the section is titled "Avoid giving too much notice" and lists the reasons that 10 months was way too long. The advice is to match the notice period to the handover period, along with giving your manager ongoing feedback (as you did) if you're heading in this direction. Interestingly, one other commenter did a 12 (!) month notice period and it seemed to work in that situation. Maybe that is where we've crossed wires on your last point too? I'm specifically not advocating for super-long notice periods, but as a hiring manager I would always respect a candidate who wanted to do e.g. 6 weeks instead of 2 if there was a good reason. For more senior roles, two weeks is not standard, nor is it internationally.
wombat-man 5y ago
Yeah, you need to do what's best for your own career. Don't feel bad walking away for a better opportunity. Unless it's a very small company. I promise your multi billion dollar corporation is going to be just fine without you. Believing otherwise is ego.
MuffinFlavored 5y ago
> been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. How often do you fellow HNers disagree with management? Is it that common? I think it's probably the worst part of "working for a living".
- hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
  I disagree with my manager (and other managers in the org) all the time. It's fine, we talk about the tradeoffs involved and figure out the best path forward. Every time I hear people worried about disagreeing with management, it's because management are assholes. The managers I work with are good people. They're not perfect, but I do (mostly) trust their competency. I'm also senior enough people can't push me around.
  - MuffinFlavored 5y ago
    How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"? When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms?
    - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
      > How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"? Management only "wins" sometimes, though I don't really view it through a win/loss lens. Usually there's quite a bit of give and take, as we try to figure out what's best. I can remember engineers being hard-overruled exactly once. A large customer felt we were giving them poor service. Management upended our roadmap to prioritize things to keep the customer happy. Engineers were unhappy about the sudden change of plans, but we did end up keeping the customer. As much as I personally disliked the whole episode, management was probably right to overrule us. > When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms? It's a two-way street, but you're correct they ask more of us than we do of them.
krab 5y ago
In some parts of Europe (Czechia specifically but I heard it worked similarly in other countries), the standard is two full calendar months, so usually about ten weeks. Some candidates request three months and the employer usually can wait. Because the previous employer will also have to wait for a new hire, he will not want to let you out much sooner. It works the other way round as well. The employer can't fire you with a shorter notice period, unless there was some criminal behavior.
- fanf2 5y ago
  In Britain the notice period is usually one month, but in some cases (eg academia) it can be as long as three months. (I am currently in month 2 of my notice period…)
taffronaut 5y ago
This seems a US-centric view. One or more months is the normal contractual notice period at least in the UK and Europe. The hiring market adapts. If you have reasonable relations with your teammates it might make sense to be less of a dick during a longer notice period. Obviously it's not mandatory but everyone will probably have a nicer time.

by oramit 5y ago

gleenn 5y ago

They actually stated 10 months was way too long and cited many reasons. So that's not advice, that's reporting what didn't work well. I think we're all on the same page here 10 months is way too long including TFA.

delgaudm 5y ago

Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they will keep you in the dark. You won't know plans until they want you to know plans. They have to. It's the only way it works. You, as the employee, need to play the same game in the same way. Defensively. Know that you can keep information from them. Know you should only give information that is beneficial to you. Never self- sabotage. Never be weak. Business is a ruthless competitive game, and that includes employee to manager. You have no obligation to be honest in an exit interview. If it sucked horribly, leave with a smile and say it was great. Make it so they'll give you a great recommendation for your next gig. Lie to them like they lie to you. Bluff. Play chess, play poker. You don't have to care one whit about leaving your teammates with more work. Does the company give one shit about laying you off a week before Christmas with zero notice? No. They don't give a care at all about the disarray this causes for your life. Ultimately you are a cog, and disposable. You are not "the most valuable resource". You must be as ruthless with them as they are with you. It's the only way it works. Sure, this sounds super cyncial, you can absolutely do this and not be a dick. You don't have to be a dick at all, just think strategically, and know that you are the only one looking out for you, and you don't owe anyone anything.

deagle50 5y ago
This is the way.
avidiax 5y ago
There are people that will dismiss this as overly cynical because of the presentation. But it is true. In a big company, the VP of whatever department may feel bad about a layoff before Christmas, but they don't know you personally, and whatever numbers or major investors are motivating this don't lie. In a small company, the same is true. They might wait until things are hopeless instead of trending to hopeless, but either way, they'll lay you off when it makes sense for them. You might like your boss, but informing them well in advance of a departure is generally not a good move. Nice as they may be, they can't unknow that knowledge, and it will affect all their decisions going forward. And you, who are so sure you are leaving, may find that your outside offer is rescinded the week before Christmas (see above). 2 weeks is a reasonable courtesy and an acceptable risk. If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Agreed with everything you and OP wrote until your very last line: “ If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.” Now that’s being a dick. Looking out for yourself does not mean being a dick.
  - chottocharaii 5y ago
    Hey, if they’re willing to pay that much for it; charging any less is charity
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      I don’t know your situation, but it could also be construed as blackmail depending on the circumstances.

tessierashpool 5y ago

> This post is filled with bad and naive advice. it's also got a very silly title. the way a boss quits is they sell the company.

devwastaken 5y ago

Potential employers are sitting on empty positions, all the time. The market is not "red hot" unless you have the resume. This is continually demonstrated time and again as CS students struggle to enter the job market. We whom are paid for our work live in a bubble of success that by it's nature does not get to see the failure. If companies were actually struggling they would fund education and find people to hire. Overwhelmingly tech refuses to fund education and is heavily competed over for job positions and internships. Just like every company says they make the best products, they say they're always hiring.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jamesbrady 5y ago

To be honest I think we agree about more than you make it seem! What you did at your last job sounds exactly right to me – you were giving good feedback about what you needed, and when it wasn't heeded you left. Your manager didn't (or wasn't able to) hold up their side of that conversation and you moved to the "you should have left anyway" box. Doesn't sound fun, but we're in agreement on the steps there. The 10 months thing seems to have tripped a few people up… I might try to rephrase that? Note that the section is titled "Avoid giving too much notice" and lists the reasons that 10 months was way too long. The advice is to match the notice period to the handover period, along with giving your manager ongoing feedback (as you did) if you're heading in this direction. Interestingly, one other commenter did a 12 (!) month notice period and it seemed to work in that situation. Maybe that is where we've crossed wires on your last point too? I'm specifically not advocating for super-long notice periods, but as a hiring manager I would always respect a candidate who wanted to do e.g. 6 weeks instead of 2 if there was a good reason. For more senior roles, two weeks is not standard, nor is it internationally.

wombat-man 5y ago

Yeah, you need to do what's best for your own career. Don't feel bad walking away for a better opportunity. Unless it's a very small company. I promise your multi billion dollar corporation is going to be just fine without you. Believing otherwise is ego.

MuffinFlavored 5y ago

> been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. How often do you fellow HNers disagree with management? Is it that common? I think it's probably the worst part of "working for a living".

hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
I disagree with my manager (and other managers in the org) all the time. It's fine, we talk about the tradeoffs involved and figure out the best path forward. Every time I hear people worried about disagreeing with management, it's because management are assholes. The managers I work with are good people. They're not perfect, but I do (mostly) trust their competency. I'm also senior enough people can't push me around.
- MuffinFlavored 5y ago
  How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"? When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms?
  - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
    > How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"? Management only "wins" sometimes, though I don't really view it through a win/loss lens. Usually there's quite a bit of give and take, as we try to figure out what's best. I can remember engineers being hard-overruled exactly once. A large customer felt we were giving them poor service. Management upended our roadmap to prioritize things to keep the customer happy. Engineers were unhappy about the sudden change of plans, but we did end up keeping the customer. As much as I personally disliked the whole episode, management was probably right to overrule us. > When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms? It's a two-way street, but you're correct they ask more of us than we do of them.

krab 5y ago

In some parts of Europe (Czechia specifically but I heard it worked similarly in other countries), the standard is two full calendar months, so usually about ten weeks. Some candidates request three months and the employer usually can wait. Because the previous employer will also have to wait for a new hire, he will not want to let you out much sooner. It works the other way round as well. The employer can't fire you with a shorter notice period, unless there was some criminal behavior.

fanf2 5y ago
In Britain the notice period is usually one month, but in some cases (eg academia) it can be as long as three months. (I am currently in month 2 of my notice period…)

taffronaut 5y ago

This seems a US-centric view. One or more months is the normal contractual notice period at least in the UK and Europe. The hiring market adapts. If you have reasonable relations with your teammates it might make sense to be less of a dick during a longer notice period. Obviously it's not mandatory but everyone will probably have a nicer time.