12 ms·

I almost wonder if empathy is the right word then, maybe this would best be described as something like "susceptibility to emotional contagion." Empathy as comm

I almost wonder if empathy is the right word then, maybe this would best be described as something like "susceptibility to emotional contagion." Empathy as commonly defined includes an impulse to comfort and stand by, as opposed to avoidance.

jjk166 5y ago
Empathy is seeing the world from someone else's perspective. While it's common to comfort and stand by someone you empathize with, particularly if they are going through tough times as you presumably recognize that they want to be comforted and stood by, that impulse isn't itself empathy.
karmakaze 5y ago
I think empathy is the right word meaning to sense/feel what the other person is feeling. Being empathetic is the comforting non-avoidance aspect.
Jensson 5y ago
> Empathy as commonly defined includes an impulse to comfort and stand by, as opposed to avoidance. Right, and thinking something is delicious includes an impulse to eat rather than avoid, but lots of people still avoid food they think is delicious in order to diet. When empathy becomes too strong then it starts hurting you as a person a lot every time you see someone who has problems, so you learn to predict and avoid those situations, or you might even learn to fear them since the empathy creates too much agony in you. Empathy is just a feeling, your rational part can still work around it.
jiggunjer 5y ago
Citation needed for your definition of empathy. Oxford disagrees.
bitwize 5y ago
Empathy has a performative component to neurotypicals. If you are not acting as though you are empathizing, you have "no empathy" and are thus a strange form of psychopath. Actual psychopaths can pass the performative part of neurotypical empathy with flying colors because they are excellent maskers and mirrorers -- that is, of course, when they can be bothered to try at all. Neurotypical psychology is deep, complex, and fascinating. They devote significant brainpower to constantly evaluating and testing other people's behavior against a constantly evolving set of rules in order to ascertain whether they are a member of the neurotypical's tribe or ingroup. The rules have to change and evolve because ingroup members will be able to predict how they will change, and so catch any outgroupers who have heretofore successfully infiltrated the ingroup. It's like you have a monster CPU with a lot of cores, and then devote half (or more!) of those cores to the world's most elaborate DRM scheme. We benefit because much of that CPU power is in us freed to do other exciting things, like programming or particle physics; but we also suffer because most of the people around us cannot attest that we are legitimate humans running a legitimate copy of the human OS. Relatedly, I love Japan and I love the Japanese people but... Japanese society has one of the most elaborate, impenetrable set of social rules in the world. If you want to know why hikikomori are such a thing there, it's simple, really: so many more people are frustrated with their failure to conform to the elaborate ruleset it takes to simply be Japanese and tired of being flagged as impostors in that game of Among Us that they simply give up and withdraw into whatever brings them comfort.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  Any examples in your Japanese case? I would have thought the main performance bottle neck to social calibration would be the unspoken mind-reading requirement that seems to be prevalent in American society. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I know of Japanese society is that it's pretty blunt in its expectations. So there isn't this "mental searching tax" to make the "right" social choice that seems to be de riguer in the States. Everyday behavior in Japanese society has explicit procedures that don't change all that much. As I understand it, social failure in Japan is result of one of two things: The inability/lack of interest to follow these procedures (e.g. hikikomori, non-conformists, etc.), or following these procedures but with mistaken assumptions as to how the consequences would turn out (e.g. "herbivore" salarymen who have done everything right, but are unable to find wives like their fathers could)
  - m_fayer 5y ago
    That's interesting. A German friend of mine who's on the spectrum and had established a second life in Japan told me that Japan's explicitly defined social mores, and slightly more chilly and formal relations between people suit him much better than the Western default. His German buddies who also have one foot in Japan all seem like they're on the spectrum too, because of this I thought Japanese culture is a safe harbor for autistic folks.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      I've generally had the impression that German society is itself quite procedural and legalistic. So much so, that I'm wondering how much of a difference between the two societies your friend and his friends perceive. Was that his only reason to go to Japan or were there others?
    - bitwize 5y ago
      I've commonly said that the Japanese are Germans to strangers and Italians to family and close friends. Sometimes as a quip I add that they're Irish in the bar, lol. Japanese society is not really safe harbor for Japanese on the spectrum. It is, however, quite gracious to foreigners. As a foreigner no one will say anything to you, for instance, if you use the wrong honorific or something; most will be impressed that you can speak the language at all. Once you've been living and working in Japan for some time and have started to assimilate, though, you are on and you've got to perform the appropriate rituals or people will start to think you're being aggressively rude.

jjk166 5y ago

Empathy is seeing the world from someone else's perspective. While it's common to comfort and stand by someone you empathize with, particularly if they are going through tough times as you presumably recognize that they want to be comforted and stood by, that impulse isn't itself empathy.

karmakaze 5y ago

I think empathy is the right word meaning to sense/feel what the other person is feeling. Being empathetic is the comforting non-avoidance aspect.

Jensson 5y ago

> Empathy as commonly defined includes an impulse to comfort and stand by, as opposed to avoidance. Right, and thinking something is delicious includes an impulse to eat rather than avoid, but lots of people still avoid food they think is delicious in order to diet. When empathy becomes too strong then it starts hurting you as a person a lot every time you see someone who has problems, so you learn to predict and avoid those situations, or you might even learn to fear them since the empathy creates too much agony in you. Empathy is just a feeling, your rational part can still work around it.

jiggunjer 5y ago

Citation needed for your definition of empathy. Oxford disagrees.

bitwize 5y ago

Empathy has a performative component to neurotypicals. If you are not acting as though you are empathizing, you have "no empathy" and are thus a strange form of psychopath. Actual psychopaths can pass the performative part of neurotypical empathy with flying colors because they are excellent maskers and mirrorers -- that is, of course, when they can be bothered to try at all. Neurotypical psychology is deep, complex, and fascinating. They devote significant brainpower to constantly evaluating and testing other people's behavior against a constantly evolving set of rules in order to ascertain whether they are a member of the neurotypical's tribe or ingroup. The rules have to change and evolve because ingroup members will be able to predict how they will change, and so catch any outgroupers who have heretofore successfully infiltrated the ingroup. It's like you have a monster CPU with a lot of cores, and then devote half (or more!) of those cores to the world's most elaborate DRM scheme. We benefit because much of that CPU power is in us freed to do other exciting things, like programming or particle physics; but we also suffer because most of the people around us cannot attest that we are legitimate humans running a legitimate copy of the human OS. Relatedly, I love Japan and I love the Japanese people but... Japanese society has one of the most elaborate, impenetrable set of social rules in the world. If you want to know why hikikomori are such a thing there, it's simple, really: so many more people are frustrated with their failure to conform to the elaborate ruleset it takes to simply be Japanese and tired of being flagged as impostors in that game of Among Us that they simply give up and withdraw into whatever brings them comfort.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
Any examples in your Japanese case? I would have thought the main performance bottle neck to social calibration would be the unspoken mind-reading requirement that seems to be prevalent in American society. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I know of Japanese society is that it's pretty blunt in its expectations. So there isn't this "mental searching tax" to make the "right" social choice that seems to be de riguer in the States. Everyday behavior in Japanese society has explicit procedures that don't change all that much. As I understand it, social failure in Japan is result of one of two things: The inability/lack of interest to follow these procedures (e.g. hikikomori, non-conformists, etc.), or following these procedures but with mistaken assumptions as to how the consequences would turn out (e.g. "herbivore" salarymen who have done everything right, but are unable to find wives like their fathers could)
- m_fayer 5y ago
  That's interesting. A German friend of mine who's on the spectrum and had established a second life in Japan told me that Japan's explicitly defined social mores, and slightly more chilly and formal relations between people suit him much better than the Western default. His German buddies who also have one foot in Japan all seem like they're on the spectrum too, because of this I thought Japanese culture is a safe harbor for autistic folks.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    I've generally had the impression that German society is itself quite procedural and legalistic. So much so, that I'm wondering how much of a difference between the two societies your friend and his friends perceive. Was that his only reason to go to Japan or were there others?
  - bitwize 5y ago
    I've commonly said that the Japanese are Germans to strangers and Italians to family and close friends. Sometimes as a quip I add that they're Irish in the bar, lol. Japanese society is not really safe harbor for Japanese on the spectrum. It is, however, quite gracious to foreigners. As a foreigner no one will say anything to you, for instance, if you use the wrong honorific or something; most will be impressed that you can speak the language at all. Once you've been living and working in Japan for some time and have started to assimilate, though, you are on and you've got to perform the appropriate rituals or people will start to think you're being aggressively rude.