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Judging from how I was changing my opinion on similar matters when I was growing up, I guess she simply lacks the insight into why someone would feel the need t

Judging from how I was changing my opinion on similar matters when I was growing up, I guess she simply lacks the insight into why someone would feel the need to reject the established pronouns - she probably doesn't feel that need herself, so she doesn't have any frame of reference to be able to consider that until someone explains it to her, which makes her naturally gravitate towards seemingly unambiguous and clear grammatical rules that "make sense". I'd guess that it's pretty common for autistic people to fight concepts like singular "they" just out of the sense of maintaining linguistic order, uncorrelated with whether they actually see the need for gender-neutral and non-binary pronouns or not (which can be a source of frustrating misunderstandings that assume bad intent when there's none). For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself, which makes it obvious that the language should be able to actually express their identities and that it doesn't help anyone to try to force some categorization on them.

tonguez 5y ago
"For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself" Sex is a fundamental property of living organisms; it is not determined by thoughts or feelings.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  Of course, but that's not really related to what I said.
  - tonguez 5y ago
    “Of course, but that's not really related to what I said.” You said sexuality is a “completely arbitrary and subjective social construct” and that “there's little point in trying to objectively categorize” it. Sex has been studied since animal husbandry existed. So what you said was obviously wrong.
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
      Now go read up on what the word "sexuality" means, and how it relates to "sex".
- TOMDM 5y ago
  > so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them I think there's more than a little utility provided by the communication it enables. I'm all for non binary identities and letting people identify across them as they want, however with any change we must also recognize the utility in the previous norms so that we can preserve some useful aspects as we construct new norms.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    Can you give an example of such utility? Frankly, I don't see it - in my opinion, the best options are either not having genderized pronouns at all (and that's the option I'd actually prefer), or expressing the whole range of identities with them. Going somewhere in the middle is nothing more than just asking for dissonance to happen, which isn't useful.
    - TOMDM 5y ago
      Sure, the current utility is that most people do currently comfortably fit into the binary. We should introduce language to account for people that don't, and if demographics shifted such that most people didn't feel like the current binary fit them then we should adjust, but currently the majority of the population is happily self identifying within the binary and it's a great shortcut for them to communicate some assumptions about their identity. Only assumptions, not hard rules, but there's still utility in that.
      - seba_dos1 5y ago
        It's true that most people fit into binary, but I don't really see how that's relevant. 1) If we assume that it's essential to genderize pronouns, it doesn't really matter what the majority fits into because existence of other options does not influence that majority at all. The only case where it matters is when someone doesn't fit. The utility remains unaffected (in fact, it actually is increased because of better expressivity). 2) If we assume that it's not necessary to genderize pronouns, then it may be argued that we're losing some information that the vast majority of people was comfortably fitting into - but I don't really understand why do we actually need that information. When I refer to other people, it's extremely rare that I do it in a context that requires me to mention their gender identity (or even what do they have between their legs). In those rare cases where it's actually relevant, I wouldn't mind having to express it explicitly at all, so overall the utility seems dubious.
- tux3 5y ago
  People make a distinction between biological sex (which can itself be more complicated than XX or XY), sexuality, and gender. The person you're replying to is talking about the last two, not the former.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Sex and gender are different things. Neither is easily defined in a strict unambiguous manner, despite what we might be taught in high school biology. To be clear, this isn’t a political view point, it’s a scientific view point, there’s no singularly accepted way of defining sex in human. Unfortunately nature has this amazing ability to conjure up exceptions to every seemingly reasonable definition of male/female, and it doesn’t give two shits about our desire to arrange the world into neat little categories. https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/gender-benders-and-sequential-hermaphrodites-how-sex-is-determined/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/gender-benders-and-s...
  - zepto 5y ago
    Sex is almost always unambiguously defined, despite there being exceptions. There is no problem with having biological categories. It is not controversial in science that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. To claim otherwise is definitely political. Gender is entirely more complex social phenomenon and indeed isn’t directly related to sexual dimorphism, and evolving gender politics are totally legitimate. Pretending humans aren’t sexually dimorphic isn’t.
    - avianlyric 5y ago
      I agree in the vast majority of individuals sex is clear cut and unambiguous. It’s also clear that humans are sexually dimorphic. However that doesn’t mean that ambiguity in sex doesn’t exist, and that sexual ambiguous in individuals is impossible. Sexual ambiguity isn’t common, but equally it doesn’t represent an aberration or break some natural law. So I take issue with the idea that determining sex is universally trivial, and those that dismiss real cases of sexual ambiguity as political correctness gone wrong. Its just that sometimes people are born who don’t fit neatly into commonly held categories, it doesn’t make them special, it just means they’re unique on axis that most people aren’t. Most of the time that nothing more than an interesting observation, but sometimes these people need help to understand how they fit in a world that culturally assumes they don’t exist.
      - zepto 5y ago
PeterisP 5y ago
The argument about gender (and pronouns) being an arbitrary social construct does not imply that it's the individual's unilateral choice - the fact that naming people and referring to them is a social construct means that the social consensus determines how people will be addressed and the individual does not get a veto vote - e.g. if someone asserts that their identity requires them to be called Your Majesty, the society will simply ignore that demand. So the demand for non-standard pronouns essentially is up to the society; someone may want others to use e.g. xe/xir, but it does not necessarily mean that this desire has to be honored, that is an arbitrary social construct which can plausibly be different in different subcommunities; in some communities these pronouns fit the social construct and it's mandatory to use them, in other communities it goes against the social construct and it's considered unreasonable to demand that they get used. There are many other parallels - e.g. the criteria for using (and expecting/demanding of use) of formal vs informal "You" in many languages, the expectation on how mandatory it is to use specific prefixes or honorifics (Sir/Ms/Dr), etc; and in all those cases it's an arbitrary social construct and the wishes of the individual can be and are shunned whenever they go beyond what the locally prevailing social norms require.

tonguez 5y ago

"For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself" Sex is a fundamental property of living organisms; it is not determined by thoughts or feelings.

seba_dos1 5y ago
Of course, but that's not really related to what I said.
- tonguez 5y ago
  “Of course, but that's not really related to what I said.” You said sexuality is a “completely arbitrary and subjective social construct” and that “there's little point in trying to objectively categorize” it. Sex has been studied since animal husbandry existed. So what you said was obviously wrong.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    Now go read up on what the word "sexuality" means, and how it relates to "sex".
TOMDM 5y ago
> so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them I think there's more than a little utility provided by the communication it enables. I'm all for non binary identities and letting people identify across them as they want, however with any change we must also recognize the utility in the previous norms so that we can preserve some useful aspects as we construct new norms.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  Can you give an example of such utility? Frankly, I don't see it - in my opinion, the best options are either not having genderized pronouns at all (and that's the option I'd actually prefer), or expressing the whole range of identities with them. Going somewhere in the middle is nothing more than just asking for dissonance to happen, which isn't useful.
  - TOMDM 5y ago
    Sure, the current utility is that most people do currently comfortably fit into the binary. We should introduce language to account for people that don't, and if demographics shifted such that most people didn't feel like the current binary fit them then we should adjust, but currently the majority of the population is happily self identifying within the binary and it's a great shortcut for them to communicate some assumptions about their identity. Only assumptions, not hard rules, but there's still utility in that.
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
      It's true that most people fit into binary, but I don't really see how that's relevant. 1) If we assume that it's essential to genderize pronouns, it doesn't really matter what the majority fits into because existence of other options does not influence that majority at all. The only case where it matters is when someone doesn't fit. The utility remains unaffected (in fact, it actually is increased because of better expressivity). 2) If we assume that it's not necessary to genderize pronouns, then it may be argued that we're losing some information that the vast majority of people was comfortably fitting into - but I don't really understand why do we actually need that information. When I refer to other people, it's extremely rare that I do it in a context that requires me to mention their gender identity (or even what do they have between their legs). In those rare cases where it's actually relevant, I wouldn't mind having to express it explicitly at all, so overall the utility seems dubious.
tux3 5y ago
People make a distinction between biological sex (which can itself be more complicated than XX or XY), sexuality, and gender. The person you're replying to is talking about the last two, not the former.
avianlyric 5y ago
Sex and gender are different things. Neither is easily defined in a strict unambiguous manner, despite what we might be taught in high school biology. To be clear, this isn’t a political view point, it’s a scientific view point, there’s no singularly accepted way of defining sex in human. Unfortunately nature has this amazing ability to conjure up exceptions to every seemingly reasonable definition of male/female, and it doesn’t give two shits about our desire to arrange the world into neat little categories. https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/gender-benders-and-sequential-hermaphrodites-how-sex-is-determined/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/gender-benders-and-s...
- zepto 5y ago
  Sex is almost always unambiguously defined, despite there being exceptions. There is no problem with having biological categories. It is not controversial in science that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. To claim otherwise is definitely political. Gender is entirely more complex social phenomenon and indeed isn’t directly related to sexual dimorphism, and evolving gender politics are totally legitimate. Pretending humans aren’t sexually dimorphic isn’t.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    I agree in the vast majority of individuals sex is clear cut and unambiguous. It’s also clear that humans are sexually dimorphic. However that doesn’t mean that ambiguity in sex doesn’t exist, and that sexual ambiguous in individuals is impossible. Sexual ambiguity isn’t common, but equally it doesn’t represent an aberration or break some natural law. So I take issue with the idea that determining sex is universally trivial, and those that dismiss real cases of sexual ambiguity as political correctness gone wrong. Its just that sometimes people are born who don’t fit neatly into commonly held categories, it doesn’t make them special, it just means they’re unique on axis that most people aren’t. Most of the time that nothing more than an interesting observation, but sometimes these people need help to understand how they fit in a world that culturally assumes they don’t exist.
    - zepto 5y ago

PeterisP 5y ago

The argument about gender (and pronouns) being an arbitrary social construct does not imply that it's the individual's unilateral choice - the fact that naming people and referring to them is a social construct means that the social consensus determines how people will be addressed and the individual does not get a veto vote - e.g. if someone asserts that their identity requires them to be called Your Majesty, the society will simply ignore that demand. So the demand for non-standard pronouns essentially is up to the society; someone may want others to use e.g. xe/xir, but it does not necessarily mean that this desire has to be honored, that is an arbitrary social construct which can plausibly be different in different subcommunities; in some communities these pronouns fit the social construct and it's mandatory to use them, in other communities it goes against the social construct and it's considered unreasonable to demand that they get used. There are many other parallels - e.g. the criteria for using (and expecting/demanding of use) of formal vs informal "You" in many languages, the expectation on how mandatory it is to use specific prefixes or honorifics (Sir/Ms/Dr), etc; and in all those cases it's an arbitrary social construct and the wishes of the individual can be and are shunned whenever they go beyond what the locally prevailing social norms require.