4 ms·

The problem with a subway is that I don't want to take a subway. They are often dangerous in the US, make it difficult to transport items, they are frequently d

by mdeeks 5y ago

The problem with a subway is that I don't want to take a subway. They are often dangerous in the US, make it difficult to transport items, they are frequently dirty, and really just inconvenient. I see these tunnels as somewhere in between traditional roads and a subway or bus. The cost seems like its way too high to justify. Maybe only worth it in the worst traffic areas where there is no land for more roads.

brightstep 5y ago
That's just a problem on investment, not inherent to subways. The more we spend on dumb "solutions" like these tunnels, the more we close our imagination to improvement of actual proven public infrastructure
bobthebuilders 5y ago
The point of a subway is that the people who want to take a subway take the subway, freeing space for other people. This solution has the high construction cost of a subway, no cheaper running cost than a BRT solution, and has less throughput than either. Also, those flaws (except maybe luggage) aren't a fault of subways themselves, and could also apply to any competitors copying Tesla. I don't think the Tesla tunnel has any benefit over any other system (it's basically a worse airport people mover). But I think Elon is thinking 3 steps ahead towards his Vegas Loop, an idea that while still a bit too handwavey for me makes more sense. It's basically a road system underground, but fully automated. I'm still iffy on how I like the idea, but it's clear that this is Musk's vision, and the tunnel is perhaps a small path towards that.
- mdeeks 5y ago
  I thought the cost was dramatically cheaper than subway systems because it was a much smaller diameter tunnel and didn't require nearly as much equipment? I seem to remember it was something like 10 or 100x cheaper (I'll have to look up numbers later). No question it'll be a lot less throughput. It seems like the factors are the cost per mile, time to build, and people per hour vs a subway system. All need to be weighed to have it make sense. Obviously they can't employ people to drive you in Teslas either. It's only worth it if I can drive in with my car and drive out the other end. If it is 10x cheaper, can we build 10x the number of tunnels to achieve similar results? I really just don't know yet.
  - bobthebuilders 5y ago
    I'd question a 100x decrease, but anywhere from 2-10x due to less obstacle avoidance and external factors seems reasonable. (Although newer designs by places like Hitachi promise to cut cost using smaller vehicles at higher frequency, probably in an effort to make inroads in NA). Something else that's worth considering is whether this scales. I'd expect a loop like the Las Vegas Loop to be somewhat larger to deal with concerns with ventilation and evacuation, something this loop doesn't have to deal with yet. I think we also want GoA 2/GoA 3 capable cars, which should be easier than FSD and be achievable by Tesla in the short term. Driving manually through small tunnels is not for everyone, and even with guidewheels, I think automation is pretty important for this kind of system. The technology to realize these loops in the way Musk wants them isn't quite there yet, but I'd expect them to be here soonTM.
    - mdeeks 5y ago
      The only numbers I can quickly find is this at about a 30x difference: For instance, Mayor Francis Suarez from Miami noted that TBC quoted $30 million for a tunnel under the Miami River. In comparison, the Miami-Dade County transit officials estimated a $900 million price tag for a tunnel about 2-miles long for the same project https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-lvcc-loop-4400-per-hour-capacity-test-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-lvcc-loop...
immibis 5y ago
You've never experienced a decent subway then. The king of Norway famously rode the subway during an oil crisis. Outside of America, they are not seen as dirty, or dangerous, just as another way to get around...
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  Singaporean subways/trains are also excellent IME. However the Singaporean people seem to think it's inadequate - I thought it was fantastic compared to the public transport systems we have in Australia.
- mdeeks 5y ago
  I have actually. The ones in Korea and Japan were excellent. Thats why I specifically mentioned the US. I'm not sure why there is a such a stark difference (cultural reasons?) but it remains the public transit in most of the US is a terrible experience.

by mdeeks 5y ago

brightstep 5y ago

That's just a problem on investment, not inherent to subways. The more we spend on dumb "solutions" like these tunnels, the more we close our imagination to improvement of actual proven public infrastructure

bobthebuilders 5y ago

The point of a subway is that the people who want to take a subway take the subway, freeing space for other people. This solution has the high construction cost of a subway, no cheaper running cost than a BRT solution, and has less throughput than either. Also, those flaws (except maybe luggage) aren't a fault of subways themselves, and could also apply to any competitors copying Tesla. I don't think the Tesla tunnel has any benefit over any other system (it's basically a worse airport people mover). But I think Elon is thinking 3 steps ahead towards his Vegas Loop, an idea that while still a bit too handwavey for me makes more sense. It's basically a road system underground, but fully automated. I'm still iffy on how I like the idea, but it's clear that this is Musk's vision, and the tunnel is perhaps a small path towards that.

mdeeks 5y ago
I thought the cost was dramatically cheaper than subway systems because it was a much smaller diameter tunnel and didn't require nearly as much equipment? I seem to remember it was something like 10 or 100x cheaper (I'll have to look up numbers later). No question it'll be a lot less throughput. It seems like the factors are the cost per mile, time to build, and people per hour vs a subway system. All need to be weighed to have it make sense. Obviously they can't employ people to drive you in Teslas either. It's only worth it if I can drive in with my car and drive out the other end. If it is 10x cheaper, can we build 10x the number of tunnels to achieve similar results? I really just don't know yet.
- bobthebuilders 5y ago
  I'd question a 100x decrease, but anywhere from 2-10x due to less obstacle avoidance and external factors seems reasonable. (Although newer designs by places like Hitachi promise to cut cost using smaller vehicles at higher frequency, probably in an effort to make inroads in NA). Something else that's worth considering is whether this scales. I'd expect a loop like the Las Vegas Loop to be somewhat larger to deal with concerns with ventilation and evacuation, something this loop doesn't have to deal with yet. I think we also want GoA 2/GoA 3 capable cars, which should be easier than FSD and be achievable by Tesla in the short term. Driving manually through small tunnels is not for everyone, and even with guidewheels, I think automation is pretty important for this kind of system. The technology to realize these loops in the way Musk wants them isn't quite there yet, but I'd expect them to be here soonTM.
  - mdeeks 5y ago
    The only numbers I can quickly find is this at about a 30x difference: For instance, Mayor Francis Suarez from Miami noted that TBC quoted $30 million for a tunnel under the Miami River. In comparison, the Miami-Dade County transit officials estimated a $900 million price tag for a tunnel about 2-miles long for the same project https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-lvcc-loop-4400-per-hour-capacity-test-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-lvcc-loop...

immibis 5y ago

You've never experienced a decent subway then. The king of Norway famously rode the subway during an oil crisis. Outside of America, they are not seen as dirty, or dangerous, just as another way to get around...

0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Singaporean subways/trains are also excellent IME. However the Singaporean people seem to think it's inadequate - I thought it was fantastic compared to the public transport systems we have in Australia.
mdeeks 5y ago
I have actually. The ones in Korea and Japan were excellent. Thats why I specifically mentioned the US. I'm not sure why there is a such a stark difference (cultural reasons?) but it remains the public transit in most of the US is a terrible experience.