5 ms·

This is excellent advice for those working in a rational environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not so much. Plan your exit strategy as yo

This is excellent advice for those working in a rational environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not so much. Plan your exit strategy as you would from an abusive spouse. Don't assume good faith on anyone else's part.

chadcmulligan 5y ago
Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  I'm sorry that's been your experience! These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have seen them, and I have tried to be one. Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"!
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I'm far from perfect as a manager, but I've always worked to help employees working for me evaluate their career options inside and outside our company. I've had open conversations with my bosses about what my goals, skills, limits, etc. were. Many times, I've "saved" employees (from quitting) by helping them see a better path here than they expected was possible. Other times, I've said "holy crap, that sounds amazing and, even though I really value having you work here, I have to advise you that I'd make the jump if I was in your shoes." I've told my boss when (and why) I was interviewing for other roles. I've also told them when I've been totally satisfied and not intending to look for a while. I could work for a boss that I couldn't trust with that data, but I much prefer working for one that I can and I try to be the one that my directs can trust with it.
- vanusa 5y ago
  It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks. It can sure seem that way -- and no doubt is that way, in certain situations. More often I find they're simply ... scared. Of how they'll be evaluated, or what will happen if they make a mistake (or heavens, let someone below them make a mistake). Or of simply being "found out" (that they're not nearly as experienced or as sage in their advice as others have made them out to be).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
mds 5y ago
In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're not meeting their performance goals. But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform under-performing employees that they're actively looking to hire someone to replace them before firing them.
lmilcin 5y ago
I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or irrational. Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I worked with in the past and have became successful in the meantime. Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to leave gracefully?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I still strongly suggest you get everything in order (employment offer accepted) before sharing you are on a job search. Companies will start planning without you and you may not land the perfect job for months. Would a company share they are posting a job to replace you and then ask you to train that person before they actually do? Graceful is 2/3 weeks notice of handing off projects.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    Well, you should have offer before you put your notice. I usually wait until I have the new contract signed. But the notice should not be a surprise to anybody. I tell my boss that I am actively searching, don't yet have an offer or a concrete date. I also tell him not to worry and reassure I will try to give him as much notice as possible and will cooperate to close whatever projects we can close and do necessary transfers gracefully. This lets him plan some things like grooming my replacement or put more emphasis on closing projects rather than starting new ones. Which is additional benefit for me because there aren't many things worse for me than working on a project that I know I will never be able to finish. Also here in Poland notice period is 1 month minimum. Since it is calendar month it can even be almost two months. But I also work as tech lead which means there is way more projects I am involved in and way more technical stuff to pass. I try as much as I can not to be a bus factor 1 employee but somehow there is always a bunch of things that people realise would like to get done before I leave because they know otherwise they will have to wait forever for them.
300bps 5y ago
I don’t think it’s good advice even for someone working in a rational environment. The part about giving ten months notice is terrible. He even says that it was bad for both sides! He was mentally checked out for months and not coming up with long term solutions because he knew he was out of there. Not my supposition - he literally says that. My past three jobs have all lasted at least a decade. I just don’t agree with much if any of the advice here other than the blatantly obvious things like “don’t sabotage them” lol.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  I think we might have crossed wires here… The section you're referring to is titled "Avoid giving too much notice " and basically gives five reasons for why 10 months was a harmfully-long notice period. The advice is to give much less notice than that.
  - 300bps 5y ago
    I think you may have missed the part in my original comment where I said He even says that it was bad for both sides!. Respectfully, my point was that the way the author (you?) left that company reads like it was a train wreck. To a level that I wouldn't look to the author for any advice on how to leave a company. And what was the advice? Don't sabotage the company and don't give 10 months notice? If ten thousand people quit a job, how many would even imagine doing either of those things?
    - jamesbrady 5y ago
      Thankfully, it wasn't a train wreck! But yes, there were certainly some things I would have done differently. For me, I tend to learn more from my or someone else's mistakes than from when something went swimmingly – the post is an attempt to capture some of those. Your last paragraph strawmans me… but yes, two of my points are related to what you mention. Don't sabotage your team and don't give too much notice – I've seen several people do one or the other of these.
  - bigmattystyles 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

chadcmulligan 5y ago

Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks.

jamesbrady 5y ago
I'm sorry that's been your experience! These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have seen them, and I have tried to be one. Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"!
sokoloff 5y ago
I'm far from perfect as a manager, but I've always worked to help employees working for me evaluate their career options inside and outside our company. I've had open conversations with my bosses about what my goals, skills, limits, etc. were. Many times, I've "saved" employees (from quitting) by helping them see a better path here than they expected was possible. Other times, I've said "holy crap, that sounds amazing and, even though I really value having you work here, I have to advise you that I'd make the jump if I was in your shoes." I've told my boss when (and why) I was interviewing for other roles. I've also told them when I've been totally satisfied and not intending to look for a while. I could work for a boss that I couldn't trust with that data, but I much prefer working for one that I can and I try to be the one that my directs can trust with it.
vanusa 5y ago
It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks. It can sure seem that way -- and no doubt is that way, in certain situations. More often I find they're simply ... scared. Of how they'll be evaluated, or what will happen if they make a mistake (or heavens, let someone below them make a mistake). Or of simply being "found out" (that they're not nearly as experienced or as sage in their advice as others have made them out to be).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

mds 5y ago

In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're not meeting their performance goals. But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform under-performing employees that they're actively looking to hire someone to replace them before firing them.

lmilcin 5y ago

I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or irrational. Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I worked with in the past and have became successful in the meantime. Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to leave gracefully?

ipaddr 5y ago
I still strongly suggest you get everything in order (employment offer accepted) before sharing you are on a job search. Companies will start planning without you and you may not land the perfect job for months. Would a company share they are posting a job to replace you and then ask you to train that person before they actually do? Graceful is 2/3 weeks notice of handing off projects.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  Well, you should have offer before you put your notice. I usually wait until I have the new contract signed. But the notice should not be a surprise to anybody. I tell my boss that I am actively searching, don't yet have an offer or a concrete date. I also tell him not to worry and reassure I will try to give him as much notice as possible and will cooperate to close whatever projects we can close and do necessary transfers gracefully. This lets him plan some things like grooming my replacement or put more emphasis on closing projects rather than starting new ones. Which is additional benefit for me because there aren't many things worse for me than working on a project that I know I will never be able to finish. Also here in Poland notice period is 1 month minimum. Since it is calendar month it can even be almost two months. But I also work as tech lead which means there is way more projects I am involved in and way more technical stuff to pass. I try as much as I can not to be a bus factor 1 employee but somehow there is always a bunch of things that people realise would like to get done before I leave because they know otherwise they will have to wait forever for them.

300bps 5y ago

I don’t think it’s good advice even for someone working in a rational environment. The part about giving ten months notice is terrible. He even says that it was bad for both sides! He was mentally checked out for months and not coming up with long term solutions because he knew he was out of there. Not my supposition - he literally says that. My past three jobs have all lasted at least a decade. I just don’t agree with much if any of the advice here other than the blatantly obvious things like “don’t sabotage them” lol.

jamesbrady 5y ago
I think we might have crossed wires here… The section you're referring to is titled "Avoid giving too much notice " and basically gives five reasons for why 10 months was a harmfully-long notice period. The advice is to give much less notice than that.
- 300bps 5y ago
  I think you may have missed the part in my original comment where I said He even says that it was bad for both sides!. Respectfully, my point was that the way the author (you?) left that company reads like it was a train wreck. To a level that I wouldn't look to the author for any advice on how to leave a company. And what was the advice? Don't sabotage the company and don't give 10 months notice? If ten thousand people quit a job, how many would even imagine doing either of those things?
  - jamesbrady 5y ago
    Thankfully, it wasn't a train wreck! But yes, there were certainly some things I would have done differently. For me, I tend to learn more from my or someone else's mistakes than from when something went swimmingly – the post is an attempt to capture some of those. Your last paragraph strawmans me… but yes, two of my points are related to what you mention. Don't sabotage your team and don't give too much notice – I've seen several people do one or the other of these.
- bigmattystyles 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]