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Do you know that internet is down due to civil unrest and many people are reported dead? While I understand your excitement towards Bitcoin's problems, please r

by nalrey 5y ago

Do you know that internet is down due to civil unrest and many people are reported dead? While I understand your excitement towards Bitcoin's problems, please read up on context why it is happening. https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/06/asia/kazakhstan-fuel-protests-thursday-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/06/asia/kazakhstan-fuel-protests... https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/01/06/world/kazakhstan-protests https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/01/06/world/kazakhstan-pro...

throwawaygh 5y ago
The civil unrest was triggered in part by soaring energy prices, in a country where bitcoin mining consumes 8% of total generation capacity.
- nalrey 5y ago
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > But why you are using a throwaway account then? I'm not. My account is over a year old with >4500 karma. My username happens to have the word throwaway in it. So what? Your name is green. (Which I'm fine with and don't really care about... but it makes your comment a bit bewildering.)
    - nalrey 5y ago
      I stand corrected regarding your account. The protest have started due to increase in natural gas prices (not the gasoline), but the root cause is not the price but income inequality. In any case, it has no (even not a remote) connection to the bitcoin network and its energy consumption, nor to coal plants. My comment was an urge to stay civil and prevent any rush excitement regarding the Bitcoin's crisis without knowing the whole picture. Specifically to counter the comments of "Let's hope they stay shut off then." PS. Yes my account is green: I have registered today once I saw this discussion, but believe me it is not a throwaway.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The connection is far from remote. Bitcoin caused an almost instant 10% increase to electricity usage in Kazakshtan. For obvious reasons, all of that increase has to be supplied with additional gas and coal consumption. Because of the contracts that Kazakshtan signs for its fossil fuel supply, this extra capacity has to be at a higher cost. At least, that's how these contracts typically work, and I'd be very doubtful that Russia would agree to subsidies Kazakh crypto miners, but they do subsidise residential energy consumption in exchange for other concessions. Indeed, normally, Kazakstan wouldn't see a natural gaz price increase because they negotiate fixed cost contracts with Russia (at least, this is what they used to do and what its neighbors do right now). If they exceed baseline capacity, prices rise significantly. This means that the price of electricity and fossil fuel must increase strongly, and the proximal cause is indeed Bitcoin. As far as inequality, Kazakhstan has a Gini coefficient of around 27.4, which is lot lower than lost countries. If this was actually caused by inequality, we would expect to see similar conflicts in many more countries. On the other hand, rising natural gas and electricity prices are a much stronger and more frequent signal of social unrest, with dozens of precedents all over the world. Because of this, it seems to me that rising energy prices are indeed the proximate cause of the current unrest, and Bitcoin is likely the proximate cause of rising energy prices.
        throwawaygh 5y ago
        > The connection is far from remote... rising energy prices are indeed the proximate cause of the current unrest, and Bitcoin is likely the proximate cause of rising energy prices. I agree with this. I also agree with nalrey that energy prices are the spark, not the powder keg. But still, it's a tough pill to swallow that spending a whopping 8% of the country's energy generation capacity on bitcoin mining is even remotely reasonable during an energy crisis...
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        > In any case, it has no (even not a remote) connection to the bitcoin network and its energy consumption, nor to coal plants. I think this is, on balance, true. But it's also true that a crackdown on crypto mining is at least not a bad thing in a country experiencing an energy crisis. These can both be true. Also, 8% is massive. That's a slightly higher percentage than what the US uses to maintain all of its cold supply chains. > prevent any rush excitement regarding the Bitcoin's crisis without knowing the whole picture. I see. That's totally reasonable. > PS. Yes my account is green: I have registered today once I saw this discussion, but believe me it is not a throwaway. Sure, makes sense :). In any case, political discussion in times of crisis are exactly the cases where anonymity can be important.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Soaring prices of fuel and gas, not electricity. And Kazahk authorities are far from democratic, they block internet in whole country to stop the protests, they did strange things with internet access last year also. And they invited Russian troops to stop the unrest. And their (or the invited) military shoots to kill its own citizens.
  - dmw_ng 5y ago
    Oil and gas contribute 50% of Kazakhstan's electricity generation
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > Soaring prices of fuel and gas, not electricity. Nat gas accounts for about 20% of Kazahktan's electricity generation mix. > And Kazahk authorities are far from democratic, they block internet in whole country to stop the protests, they did strange things with internet access last year also. And they invited Russian troops to stop the unrest. And their (or the invited) military shoots to kill its own citizens. This is all true, but also a bit beside the point given the above exchange. But, whatever. Suppose I concede this point that coal consumption doesn't really have much of anything at all to do Kazahktan's current unrest. Doesn't that make nalrey's comment here totally moot?
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      Riots are over LPG prices, used in cars, and villagers' kitchens. It is composed of heavier weight alkanes, propane, butane and heavier. It's not the same as the natgas used for power generation, which is almost entirely methane. Not every energy crisis in the wolrd is caused by Bitcoin, which literally uses less energy than gamers or heated pools.
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        > Riots are over LPG prices... not the same as the natgas used for power generation ...think very carefully and very slowly about the following question: so what? (The answer to that question will betray a wild misunderstanding of the political economy of Kazakhstan.) > Not every energy crisis in the wolrd is caused by Bitcoin Hm. I don't remember saying otherwise. I must have stuttered? > which literally uses less energy than gamers or heated pools. Globally. In Kazakhstan it consumes 8% of production, which is insane. 8% is a fucking huge number in a country experiencing an energy crisis. Hell, it's a huge number period. By percentage comparison, that's all refrigeration and freezing in the US. Can you imagine? Insane. Anyways, this is all beside the point. I'll avoid stuttering this time and repeat myself clearly and slowly this time: >> But, whatever. Suppose I concede this point that coal consumption doesn't really have much of anything at all to do Kazahktan's current unrest. Doesn't that make nalrey's comment here totally moot?

by nalrey 5y ago

throwawaygh 5y ago

The civil unrest was triggered in part by soaring energy prices, in a country where bitcoin mining consumes 8% of total generation capacity.

nalrey 5y ago
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > But why you are using a throwaway account then? I'm not. My account is over a year old with >4500 karma. My username happens to have the word throwaway in it. So what? Your name is green. (Which I'm fine with and don't really care about... but it makes your comment a bit bewildering.)
  - nalrey 5y ago
    I stand corrected regarding your account. The protest have started due to increase in natural gas prices (not the gasoline), but the root cause is not the price but income inequality. In any case, it has no (even not a remote) connection to the bitcoin network and its energy consumption, nor to coal plants. My comment was an urge to stay civil and prevent any rush excitement regarding the Bitcoin's crisis without knowing the whole picture. Specifically to counter the comments of "Let's hope they stay shut off then." PS. Yes my account is green: I have registered today once I saw this discussion, but believe me it is not a throwaway.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      The connection is far from remote. Bitcoin caused an almost instant 10% increase to electricity usage in Kazakshtan. For obvious reasons, all of that increase has to be supplied with additional gas and coal consumption. Because of the contracts that Kazakshtan signs for its fossil fuel supply, this extra capacity has to be at a higher cost. At least, that's how these contracts typically work, and I'd be very doubtful that Russia would agree to subsidies Kazakh crypto miners, but they do subsidise residential energy consumption in exchange for other concessions. Indeed, normally, Kazakstan wouldn't see a natural gaz price increase because they negotiate fixed cost contracts with Russia (at least, this is what they used to do and what its neighbors do right now). If they exceed baseline capacity, prices rise significantly. This means that the price of electricity and fossil fuel must increase strongly, and the proximal cause is indeed Bitcoin. As far as inequality, Kazakhstan has a Gini coefficient of around 27.4, which is lot lower than lost countries. If this was actually caused by inequality, we would expect to see similar conflicts in many more countries. On the other hand, rising natural gas and electricity prices are a much stronger and more frequent signal of social unrest, with dozens of precedents all over the world. Because of this, it seems to me that rising energy prices are indeed the proximate cause of the current unrest, and Bitcoin is likely the proximate cause of rising energy prices.
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        > The connection is far from remote... rising energy prices are indeed the proximate cause of the current unrest, and Bitcoin is likely the proximate cause of rising energy prices. I agree with this. I also agree with nalrey that energy prices are the spark, not the powder keg. But still, it's a tough pill to swallow that spending a whopping 8% of the country's energy generation capacity on bitcoin mining is even remotely reasonable during an energy crisis...
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      > In any case, it has no (even not a remote) connection to the bitcoin network and its energy consumption, nor to coal plants. I think this is, on balance, true. But it's also true that a crackdown on crypto mining is at least not a bad thing in a country experiencing an energy crisis. These can both be true. Also, 8% is massive. That's a slightly higher percentage than what the US uses to maintain all of its cold supply chains. > prevent any rush excitement regarding the Bitcoin's crisis without knowing the whole picture. I see. That's totally reasonable. > PS. Yes my account is green: I have registered today once I saw this discussion, but believe me it is not a throwaway. Sure, makes sense :). In any case, political discussion in times of crisis are exactly the cases where anonymity can be important.
krzyk 5y ago
Soaring prices of fuel and gas, not electricity. And Kazahk authorities are far from democratic, they block internet in whole country to stop the protests, they did strange things with internet access last year also. And they invited Russian troops to stop the unrest. And their (or the invited) military shoots to kill its own citizens.
- dmw_ng 5y ago
  Oil and gas contribute 50% of Kazakhstan's electricity generation
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > Soaring prices of fuel and gas, not electricity. Nat gas accounts for about 20% of Kazahktan's electricity generation mix. > And Kazahk authorities are far from democratic, they block internet in whole country to stop the protests, they did strange things with internet access last year also. And they invited Russian troops to stop the unrest. And their (or the invited) military shoots to kill its own citizens. This is all true, but also a bit beside the point given the above exchange. But, whatever. Suppose I concede this point that coal consumption doesn't really have much of anything at all to do Kazahktan's current unrest. Doesn't that make nalrey's comment here totally moot?
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    Riots are over LPG prices, used in cars, and villagers' kitchens. It is composed of heavier weight alkanes, propane, butane and heavier. It's not the same as the natgas used for power generation, which is almost entirely methane. Not every energy crisis in the wolrd is caused by Bitcoin, which literally uses less energy than gamers or heated pools.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      > Riots are over LPG prices... not the same as the natgas used for power generation ...think very carefully and very slowly about the following question: so what? (The answer to that question will betray a wild misunderstanding of the political economy of Kazakhstan.) > Not every energy crisis in the wolrd is caused by Bitcoin Hm. I don't remember saying otherwise. I must have stuttered? > which literally uses less energy than gamers or heated pools. Globally. In Kazakhstan it consumes 8% of production, which is insane. 8% is a fucking huge number in a country experiencing an energy crisis. Hell, it's a huge number period. By percentage comparison, that's all refrigeration and freezing in the US. Can you imagine? Insane. Anyways, this is all beside the point. I'll avoid stuttering this time and repeat myself clearly and slowly this time: >> But, whatever. Suppose I concede this point that coal consumption doesn't really have much of anything at all to do Kazahktan's current unrest. Doesn't that make nalrey's comment here totally moot?