6 ms·

While certain implementations of crypto are certainly a problem, rallying to ban it seems to imply there are no redeeming qualities and no path forward that add

While certain implementations of crypto are certainly a problem, rallying to ban it seems to imply there are no redeeming qualities and no path forward that addresses the downsides. Is that your position on this, or am I missing something?

IAmEveryone 5y ago
It’s had, what, 13 years? And it’s still a solution in search of a problem.
- haswell 5y ago
  It’s not fair to say that crypto is not solving any problems, or isn’t likely to solve any problems. Thinking specifically about the identity space for a moment, it certainly brings a new approach to solving a set of problems that still has yet to be solved well. Should something be banned on the grounds that it’s not ready yet, or hasn’t evolved fast enough? Plenty of tech on the cutting edge will appear this way before it has matured.
  - IAmEveryone 5y ago
    It also took 13 years from the first splitting of the atom to Hiroshima.
    - haswell 5y ago
      Should Nuclear power be banned? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
  - mvindahl 5y ago
    Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. We could have given them some more time, I guess. Maybe, if given another fifty years, the freon industry might have (waves hands) fixed its issues with the ozone layer. Or maybe not. That wasn’t the trajectory, anyway. Back in 2022, we’re now looking at a technology that has not, for all its promises of a glorious future, has not produced anything but centralized Ponzi-as-a-Service platforms, a way for organized crime to move money, and smokestacks. At least asbestos and freon had some utility.
    - haswell 5y ago
      > Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. I'd argue there's a bit of false equivalence in this paragraph, but for sake of argument: Leaded gasoline also solved an actual problem, and the industry innovated/evolved beyond that. Facebook solved an actual problem, and created many more. I still recognize its value even if I refuse to use it myself. I'm sure there are edge cases, but history is not generally on the side of those who have pre-emptively banned things before they come to fruition. The problem I see with this current line of discussion is that most proponents of banning throw the baby out with the bathwater, and pretend this is all a single product called "crypto". Banning "crypto" would be like banning insulation because of the issues with Asbestos.
      - mvindahl 5y ago
        In all fairness, I don’t think “crypto” should be banned as such. Partly because it’s a loose and descriptive term, unlike asbestos, which is well defined and tangible. So a blanket ban wouldn’t work. And also because it’s not necessary; existing regulation will get us most of the way: - if you are, in effect, selling a security, let this be regulated this like any other security - if you are, in effect, running a bank, etc. - if your coin X acts like an intermediary for transferring money to hostile jurisdiction Y, then regulate transfers to X like transfers to Y. Forbid these if necessary. - if your manufacturing process is needlessly wasteful then forbid this manufacturing process (globally) under threat of forbidding your product Etc
colesantiago 5y ago
My position is that after 13 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum and all cryptocurrencies I still cannot go to my local shop and buy anything with it.
- haswell 5y ago
  That’s an anecdote, but is your position that because of that, crypto should be banned? In 1999, you probably couldn’t use a Discover card in your local shop either, 13 years after Discover was founded. It took many years and many lawsuits to make headway against Visa/Mastercard. Universal acceptance isn’t the right measuring stick here.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    There's more to that, I would expect Bitcoin and Ethereum to be everywhere in the real world by now. I still don't see any shop around be accepting it, because the majority of people are only holding / investing in cryptocurrency. Not even PayPal is using it for payments [0] Even if a shop uses either of these cryptocurrencies, it is comically slow to be used as such anyway rendering them useless. Not to mention the volatility impact. So please tell me retail shop I can make a purchase using cryptocurrency that is fast, truly decentralised, eco-friendly and doesn't have exorbitant fees. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631
    - mthoms 5y ago
      None of what you said is a valid reason for "banning" crypto.
      - colesantiago 5y ago
        I only scratched the surface. We both know the obvious reasons that cryptocurrencies enable rampant ransomware [0], multiple rug pull scams [1], pointless NFTs [2] and is totally unregulated, I'm seeing crypto bros heralding 'we need decentralisation and web3' when this is all owned by VCs [3] And don't get me started on the Tether fraud [4]. I was being _generous_ in seeing if cryptocurrencies passes the 'retail shop test' and it can't even do that without burning the planet up making useless computations. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-crypto-industry-preventing-sanctions-violations-2021-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-c... [1] https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-scams-pulled-in-28b-this-year-chainalysis/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-sc... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-millions-on-evolved-apes-nfts-then-they-got-scammed https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-milli... [3] https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ [4] https://archive.is/uPQYe https://archive.is/uPQYe
pjc50 5y ago
It would seem easy enough to ban proof-of-waste and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive. And many places have blanket KYC requirements which using crypto does not exempt you from. The UK has banned crypto derivatives: https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-crypto-derivatives-retail-consumers https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-cry... and Binance. I suspect further action is coming against unregistered crypto outfits marketing to UK consumers.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive If you're referring to proof-of-stake, that technology has already arrived, seeing as how multiple of the top 10 blockchains by market cap (Solana, Cardano, Terra) use it - and consequently do not have the negative impact on the environment that e.g. Bitcoin and Ethereum currently have.
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    Now there's just the matter of their ponzi scheme structure

IAmEveryone 5y ago

It’s had, what, 13 years? And it’s still a solution in search of a problem.

haswell 5y ago
It’s not fair to say that crypto is not solving any problems, or isn’t likely to solve any problems. Thinking specifically about the identity space for a moment, it certainly brings a new approach to solving a set of problems that still has yet to be solved well. Should something be banned on the grounds that it’s not ready yet, or hasn’t evolved fast enough? Plenty of tech on the cutting edge will appear this way before it has matured.
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
  It also took 13 years from the first splitting of the atom to Hiroshima.
  - haswell 5y ago
    Should Nuclear power be banned? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
- mvindahl 5y ago
  Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. We could have given them some more time, I guess. Maybe, if given another fifty years, the freon industry might have (waves hands) fixed its issues with the ozone layer. Or maybe not. That wasn’t the trajectory, anyway. Back in 2022, we’re now looking at a technology that has not, for all its promises of a glorious future, has not produced anything but centralized Ponzi-as-a-Service platforms, a way for organized crime to move money, and smokestacks. At least asbestos and freon had some utility.
  - haswell 5y ago
    > Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. I'd argue there's a bit of false equivalence in this paragraph, but for sake of argument: Leaded gasoline also solved an actual problem, and the industry innovated/evolved beyond that. Facebook solved an actual problem, and created many more. I still recognize its value even if I refuse to use it myself. I'm sure there are edge cases, but history is not generally on the side of those who have pre-emptively banned things before they come to fruition. The problem I see with this current line of discussion is that most proponents of banning throw the baby out with the bathwater, and pretend this is all a single product called "crypto". Banning "crypto" would be like banning insulation because of the issues with Asbestos.
    - mvindahl 5y ago
      In all fairness, I don’t think “crypto” should be banned as such. Partly because it’s a loose and descriptive term, unlike asbestos, which is well defined and tangible. So a blanket ban wouldn’t work. And also because it’s not necessary; existing regulation will get us most of the way: - if you are, in effect, selling a security, let this be regulated this like any other security - if you are, in effect, running a bank, etc. - if your coin X acts like an intermediary for transferring money to hostile jurisdiction Y, then regulate transfers to X like transfers to Y. Forbid these if necessary. - if your manufacturing process is needlessly wasteful then forbid this manufacturing process (globally) under threat of forbidding your product Etc

colesantiago 5y ago

My position is that after 13 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum and all cryptocurrencies I still cannot go to my local shop and buy anything with it.

haswell 5y ago
That’s an anecdote, but is your position that because of that, crypto should be banned? In 1999, you probably couldn’t use a Discover card in your local shop either, 13 years after Discover was founded. It took many years and many lawsuits to make headway against Visa/Mastercard. Universal acceptance isn’t the right measuring stick here.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  There's more to that, I would expect Bitcoin and Ethereum to be everywhere in the real world by now. I still don't see any shop around be accepting it, because the majority of people are only holding / investing in cryptocurrency. Not even PayPal is using it for payments [0] Even if a shop uses either of these cryptocurrencies, it is comically slow to be used as such anyway rendering them useless. Not to mention the volatility impact. So please tell me retail shop I can make a purchase using cryptocurrency that is fast, truly decentralised, eco-friendly and doesn't have exorbitant fees. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631
  - mthoms 5y ago
    None of what you said is a valid reason for "banning" crypto.
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      I only scratched the surface. We both know the obvious reasons that cryptocurrencies enable rampant ransomware [0], multiple rug pull scams [1], pointless NFTs [2] and is totally unregulated, I'm seeing crypto bros heralding 'we need decentralisation and web3' when this is all owned by VCs [3] And don't get me started on the Tether fraud [4]. I was being _generous_ in seeing if cryptocurrencies passes the 'retail shop test' and it can't even do that without burning the planet up making useless computations. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-crypto-industry-preventing-sanctions-violations-2021-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-c... [1] https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-scams-pulled-in-28b-this-year-chainalysis/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-sc... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-millions-on-evolved-apes-nfts-then-they-got-scammed https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-milli... [3] https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ [4] https://archive.is/uPQYe https://archive.is/uPQYe

pjc50 5y ago

It would seem easy enough to ban proof-of-waste and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive. And many places have blanket KYC requirements which using crypto does not exempt you from. The UK has banned crypto derivatives: https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-crypto-derivatives-retail-consumers https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-cry... and Binance. I suspect further action is coming against unregistered crypto outfits marketing to UK consumers.

yellowapple 5y ago
> and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive If you're referring to proof-of-stake, that technology has already arrived, seeing as how multiple of the top 10 blockchains by market cap (Solana, Cardano, Terra) use it - and consequently do not have the negative impact on the environment that e.g. Bitcoin and Ethereum currently have.
- cuteboy19 5y ago
  Now there's just the matter of their ponzi scheme structure