9 ms·

Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. The debt that was imposed on you is inhumane and you shouldn’t have to pay it. The resul

by dgb23 5y ago

Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. The debt that was imposed on you is inhumane and you shouldn’t have to pay it. The resulting attempts to solve it by selling public infrastructure only makes it worse. Throwing crypto into the mix is pure insanity. It’s just gambling at a crippling ecological cost.

notch656a 5y ago
OK so you have a economic problem where capital controls on dollars are untenable to you and you can't move them through the traditional banking system without some mandatory and seriously depreciating exchanges. Instead you switch to crypto and hold the USD funds for safe keeping until transferring back out the country. That may not fix structural issues but if it fixes things for you personally it sounds like some sort of win and better than nothing.
ipaddr 5y ago
Crippling ecological cost? Think of the crippling cost of printing actual money from cut trees. Pressing daily newspapers can be considered insanity. Cryto is fixing economic structural problems for the parent poster.
- onion2k 5y ago
  A lot of "paper" money is made from either cotton (eg USD) or plastic (eg GBP and Euro). Trees aren't cut down to make money.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Sounds like you should get more informed about the environmental impact of cotton and plastic? Cotton: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/18/the-darling-will-die-scientists-say-mass-fish-kill-due-to-over-extraction-and-drought https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/18/the-d... Plastic: do you really need a link for this one?
    - runarberg 5y ago
      I think the environmental impact calculations are way more complicated then this. Paper money can be used for many more transactions then crypto so even if the environmental impact of every minted dollar is greater then that of bitcoin (which I’m not sure it is) then the dollar might still be more environmental by the nature if it being reusable for more transactions.
      - mastazi 5y ago
        True and my personal preference is for paper money made of actual paper. I prefer that over crypto too.
    - FabHK 5y ago
      At any rate, the ecological problems caused by making banknotes are obviously minuscule compared to those caused by fashion, crypto mining, and many other industries.
      - mastazi 5y ago
        That's true, still, we can find a more sustainable way of making banknotes I'm sure.
        mastazi 5y ago
        Edit: actually I'm not sure if that's true, are there reliable sources that we could rely on? Obviously I stand by the rest of my statement (even if X is better than Y, that doesn't mean that we should oppose proposals to improve X)
      - kragen 5y ago
        Why are they obviously minuscule compared to crypto mining? I'm unpersuaded that the ecological problems caused by crypto mining net above zero, but in any case they are obviously minuscule.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
epolanski 5y ago
Why shouldn't they pay it? Who should? In the end it is Argentinians who vote or not vote, protest or not protest. I was born in Italy after decades of extreme debt that we pay to this date to our creditors. It is the responsibility of the previous generations in the end and it falls on us.
- hogrider 5y ago
  This line of thinking goes, it's like feeding crack to an addict to keep them enslaved. A huge portion of the historical debt was acquired during the dictatorship that killed 30k people, directly installed by the western intelligence services.
- kragen 5y ago
  It's not our responsibility, and it's not the responsibility of the previous generations. If it's anyone's responsibility, it's the responsibility of the government officials who looted the country, socked away their modest winnings in banks in Uruguay, and left us to pay the bill, and of the creditors who lent them the money, knowing that was what they were doing. This collective punishment bullshit is a "let's you and him fight" swindle.
- Schroedingersat 5y ago
  The people who looted the country and kept the wealth for themselves. Or rather the country should tell the creditors to get bent, and the private 'owners' of all the public infrastructure and resources that were stolen along with anyone surviving from the ford/carter administration (and anyone who inhereted it) should have all their assets seized and split up between the various countries they looted. Your grandparents didn't vote for mussolini or almiranti and argentineans didn't vote for pinochet. The debt you 'owe' is likely being collected by the same groups of people as well as some in the UK and the rest of Europe. If someone colludes with your corrupt government to steal something from you then rent it back to you, don't say 'oh well it's my fault, better pay up'. Take it back and lock them in a cell. If I beat your parents to death, take your house, then claim you owe me for cleanup and have to be my indentured servant to pay the interest my government should give it back to you along with anything I own to pay for therapy and lock me in a cell. Countries should be no different, and we shouldn't let the murderers off scott free because they signed a piece of paper saying they were collectively 'Shell' or 'The US Government'
mehrdada 5y ago
> Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. Let me guess... have you mostly experienced life in developed countries with relatively stable financial system, non-fluctuating consumer goods prices? There are a ton of people living under extremely corrupt and dysfunctional financial systems, whose #1 concern in life is to make sure their purchasing power does not disappear the next day. For them, land, gold, and bitcoin solve a problem. Americans with simplistic "I <3 Bernanke" opinions sure assume that will "worsen" stuff; true or not, it is irrelevant to the individual in such countries who will keep on trying hard to accumulate every non-cash asset they can get their hands on.
- ShamelessC 5y ago
  And what happens when the internet goes out? https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power-slumps-kazakhstan-crackdown-hits-crypto-miners-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power...
  - jslove 5y ago
    there were a couple implementations of stellar blockchain projects in nigeria that used sms as a base technology.
  - mehrdada 5y ago
    Crypto can work quite ok-ish if the internet goes out. You can still post transactions (effectively issue IOUs with some level of assurance the funds existed in the wallet at moment you got disconnected, but no protection against double spend), but the confirmations will take a while. Visa is as bad or worse. When you live in a, for lack of a better word, "shithole country", you don't plan too long into the future; you play it by ear and find a way to live the next day. One thing to note, though, is that once a technology entrenches the black/gray markets in a society, the rulers and their sons and daughters are almost certainly participants too, and that reduces the incentive/ability to shut things down completely.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Diversification. Why on earth would you bet all your eggs on crypto? Hold a little gold or fiat or just tradeable commodities but don't give up on crypto just because of power outages. You don't throw away your PC just because the power goes out sometimes.
rmbyrro 5y ago
Do you have anything to back up your point? Prices and the financial market all boil down to communication systems. Inflation alone is extremely costly and keeps the poor poorer all around the world. I won't get into the carnage of how bankers live and their consequences to society. Blockchain is costly to run, but I'd day it's way, WAY cheaper than what we have today. There's the extreme example of Argentina and many others. Even the U.S. is starting to see the burden of this system. And for how long do the Chinese people will work for pennies of a dollar to keep the American dream while the U.S. print fictitious money at will? Talk about sustainability, but how sustainable this is? I don't think this system will evolve to something decent. Something new has got to rise and replace it.

by dgb23 5y ago

notch656a 5y ago

OK so you have a economic problem where capital controls on dollars are untenable to you and you can't move them through the traditional banking system without some mandatory and seriously depreciating exchanges. Instead you switch to crypto and hold the USD funds for safe keeping until transferring back out the country. That may not fix structural issues but if it fixes things for you personally it sounds like some sort of win and better than nothing.

ipaddr 5y ago

Crippling ecological cost? Think of the crippling cost of printing actual money from cut trees. Pressing daily newspapers can be considered insanity. Cryto is fixing economic structural problems for the parent poster.

onion2k 5y ago
A lot of "paper" money is made from either cotton (eg USD) or plastic (eg GBP and Euro). Trees aren't cut down to make money.
- mastazi 5y ago
  Sounds like you should get more informed about the environmental impact of cotton and plastic? Cotton: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/18/the-darling-will-die-scientists-say-mass-fish-kill-due-to-over-extraction-and-drought https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/18/the-d... Plastic: do you really need a link for this one?
  - runarberg 5y ago
    I think the environmental impact calculations are way more complicated then this. Paper money can be used for many more transactions then crypto so even if the environmental impact of every minted dollar is greater then that of bitcoin (which I’m not sure it is) then the dollar might still be more environmental by the nature if it being reusable for more transactions.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      True and my personal preference is for paper money made of actual paper. I prefer that over crypto too.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    At any rate, the ecological problems caused by making banknotes are obviously minuscule compared to those caused by fashion, crypto mining, and many other industries.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      That's true, still, we can find a more sustainable way of making banknotes I'm sure.
      - mastazi 5y ago
        Edit: actually I'm not sure if that's true, are there reliable sources that we could rely on? Obviously I stand by the rest of my statement (even if X is better than Y, that doesn't mean that we should oppose proposals to improve X)
    - kragen 5y ago
      Why are they obviously minuscule compared to crypto mining? I'm unpersuaded that the ecological problems caused by crypto mining net above zero, but in any case they are obviously minuscule.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

epolanski 5y ago

Why shouldn't they pay it? Who should? In the end it is Argentinians who vote or not vote, protest or not protest. I was born in Italy after decades of extreme debt that we pay to this date to our creditors. It is the responsibility of the previous generations in the end and it falls on us.

hogrider 5y ago
This line of thinking goes, it's like feeding crack to an addict to keep them enslaved. A huge portion of the historical debt was acquired during the dictatorship that killed 30k people, directly installed by the western intelligence services.
kragen 5y ago
It's not our responsibility, and it's not the responsibility of the previous generations. If it's anyone's responsibility, it's the responsibility of the government officials who looted the country, socked away their modest winnings in banks in Uruguay, and left us to pay the bill, and of the creditors who lent them the money, knowing that was what they were doing. This collective punishment bullshit is a "let's you and him fight" swindle.
Schroedingersat 5y ago
The people who looted the country and kept the wealth for themselves. Or rather the country should tell the creditors to get bent, and the private 'owners' of all the public infrastructure and resources that were stolen along with anyone surviving from the ford/carter administration (and anyone who inhereted it) should have all their assets seized and split up between the various countries they looted. Your grandparents didn't vote for mussolini or almiranti and argentineans didn't vote for pinochet. The debt you 'owe' is likely being collected by the same groups of people as well as some in the UK and the rest of Europe. If someone colludes with your corrupt government to steal something from you then rent it back to you, don't say 'oh well it's my fault, better pay up'. Take it back and lock them in a cell. If I beat your parents to death, take your house, then claim you owe me for cleanup and have to be my indentured servant to pay the interest my government should give it back to you along with anything I own to pay for therapy and lock me in a cell. Countries should be no different, and we shouldn't let the murderers off scott free because they signed a piece of paper saying they were collectively 'Shell' or 'The US Government'

mehrdada 5y ago

> Crypto won’t fix political and economic problems but only worsen them. Let me guess... have you mostly experienced life in developed countries with relatively stable financial system, non-fluctuating consumer goods prices? There are a ton of people living under extremely corrupt and dysfunctional financial systems, whose #1 concern in life is to make sure their purchasing power does not disappear the next day. For them, land, gold, and bitcoin solve a problem. Americans with simplistic "I <3 Bernanke" opinions sure assume that will "worsen" stuff; true or not, it is irrelevant to the individual in such countries who will keep on trying hard to accumulate every non-cash asset they can get their hands on.

ShamelessC 5y ago
And what happens when the internet goes out? https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power-slumps-kazakhstan-crackdown-hits-crypto-miners-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/bitcoin-network-power...
- jslove 5y ago
  there were a couple implementations of stellar blockchain projects in nigeria that used sms as a base technology.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  Crypto can work quite ok-ish if the internet goes out. You can still post transactions (effectively issue IOUs with some level of assurance the funds existed in the wallet at moment you got disconnected, but no protection against double spend), but the confirmations will take a while. Visa is as bad or worse. When you live in a, for lack of a better word, "shithole country", you don't plan too long into the future; you play it by ear and find a way to live the next day. One thing to note, though, is that once a technology entrenches the black/gray markets in a society, the rulers and their sons and daughters are almost certainly participants too, and that reduces the incentive/ability to shut things down completely.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Diversification. Why on earth would you bet all your eggs on crypto? Hold a little gold or fiat or just tradeable commodities but don't give up on crypto just because of power outages. You don't throw away your PC just because the power goes out sometimes.

rmbyrro 5y ago

Do you have anything to back up your point? Prices and the financial market all boil down to communication systems. Inflation alone is extremely costly and keeps the poor poorer all around the world. I won't get into the carnage of how bankers live and their consequences to society. Blockchain is costly to run, but I'd day it's way, WAY cheaper than what we have today. There's the extreme example of Argentina and many others. Even the U.S. is starting to see the burden of this system. And for how long do the Chinese people will work for pennies of a dollar to keep the American dream while the U.S. print fictitious money at will? Talk about sustainability, but how sustainable this is? I don't think this system will evolve to something decent. Something new has got to rise and replace it.