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> I’ve often wished there were a way to organize against crypto How about we rally to completely ban crypto. Talking about this isn't going to solve anything.

haswell 5y ago
While certain implementations of crypto are certainly a problem, rallying to ban it seems to imply there are no redeeming qualities and no path forward that addresses the downsides. Is that your position on this, or am I missing something?
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
  It’s had, what, 13 years? And it’s still a solution in search of a problem.
  - haswell 5y ago
    It’s not fair to say that crypto is not solving any problems, or isn’t likely to solve any problems. Thinking specifically about the identity space for a moment, it certainly brings a new approach to solving a set of problems that still has yet to be solved well. Should something be banned on the grounds that it’s not ready yet, or hasn’t evolved fast enough? Plenty of tech on the cutting edge will appear this way before it has matured.
    - IAmEveryone 5y ago
      It also took 13 years from the first splitting of the atom to Hiroshima.
      - haswell 5y ago
        Should Nuclear power be banned? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
    - mvindahl 5y ago
      Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. We could have given them some more time, I guess. Maybe, if given another fifty years, the freon industry might have (waves hands) fixed its issues with the ozone layer. Or maybe not. That wasn’t the trajectory, anyway. Back in 2022, we’re now looking at a technology that has not, for all its promises of a glorious future, has not produced anything but centralized Ponzi-as-a-Service platforms, a way for organized crime to move money, and smokestacks. At least asbestos and freon had some utility.
      - haswell 5y ago
        > Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. I'd argue there's a bit of false equivalence in this paragraph, but for sake of argument: Leaded gasoline also solved an actual problem, and the industry innovated/evolved beyond that. Facebook solved an actual problem, and created many more. I still recognize its value even if I refuse to use it myself. I'm sure there are edge cases, but history is not generally on the side of those who have pre-emptively banned things before they come to fruition. The problem I see with this current line of discussion is that most proponents of banning throw the baby out with the bathwater, and pretend this is all a single product called "crypto". Banning "crypto" would be like banning insulation because of the issues with Asbestos.
        mvindahl 5y ago
        In all fairness, I don’t think “crypto” should be banned as such. Partly because it’s a loose and descriptive term, unlike asbestos, which is well defined and tangible. So a blanket ban wouldn’t work. And also because it’s not necessary; existing regulation will get us most of the way: - if you are, in effect, selling a security, let this be regulated this like any other security - if you are, in effect, running a bank, etc. - if your coin X acts like an intermediary for transferring money to hostile jurisdiction Y, then regulate transfers to X like transfers to Y. Forbid these if necessary. - if your manufacturing process is needlessly wasteful then forbid this manufacturing process (globally) under threat of forbidding your product Etc
- colesantiago 5y ago
  My position is that after 13 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum and all cryptocurrencies I still cannot go to my local shop and buy anything with it.
  - haswell 5y ago
    That’s an anecdote, but is your position that because of that, crypto should be banned? In 1999, you probably couldn’t use a Discover card in your local shop either, 13 years after Discover was founded. It took many years and many lawsuits to make headway against Visa/Mastercard. Universal acceptance isn’t the right measuring stick here.
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      There's more to that, I would expect Bitcoin and Ethereum to be everywhere in the real world by now. I still don't see any shop around be accepting it, because the majority of people are only holding / investing in cryptocurrency. Not even PayPal is using it for payments [0] Even if a shop uses either of these cryptocurrencies, it is comically slow to be used as such anyway rendering them useless. Not to mention the volatility impact. So please tell me retail shop I can make a purchase using cryptocurrency that is fast, truly decentralised, eco-friendly and doesn't have exorbitant fees. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631
      - mthoms 5y ago
        None of what you said is a valid reason for "banning" crypto.
        colesantiago 5y ago
        I only scratched the surface. We both know the obvious reasons that cryptocurrencies enable rampant ransomware [0], multiple rug pull scams [1], pointless NFTs [2] and is totally unregulated, I'm seeing crypto bros heralding 'we need decentralisation and web3' when this is all owned by VCs [3] And don't get me started on the Tether fraud [4]. I was being _generous_ in seeing if cryptocurrencies passes the 'retail shop test' and it can't even do that without burning the planet up making useless computations. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-crypto-industry-preventing-sanctions-violations-2021-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-c... [1] https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-scams-pulled-in-28b-this-year-chainalysis/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-sc... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-millions-on-evolved-apes-nfts-then-they-got-scammed https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-milli... [3] https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ [4] https://archive.is/uPQYe https://archive.is/uPQYe
- pjc50 5y ago
  It would seem easy enough to ban proof-of-waste and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive. And many places have blanket KYC requirements which using crypto does not exempt you from. The UK has banned crypto derivatives: https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-crypto-derivatives-retail-consumers https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-cry... and Binance. I suspect further action is coming against unregistered crypto outfits marketing to UK consumers.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    > and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive If you're referring to proof-of-stake, that technology has already arrived, seeing as how multiple of the top 10 blockchains by market cap (Solana, Cardano, Terra) use it - and consequently do not have the negative impact on the environment that e.g. Bitcoin and Ethereum currently have.
    - cuteboy19 5y ago
      Now there's just the matter of their ponzi scheme structure
gfody 5y ago
you could only drive it into the underground where it sprouted from in the first place, it would inevitably return. the only way to stop this form of crypto is to invent a better one
- malermeister 5y ago
  If punishments for being discovered were severe enough, I think we could pretty much kill it off. Would you risk life in prison?
  - kragen 5y ago
    Often the difference between having money and having no money is life or death. So it's common for people to risk life in prison, or even death, as an alternative to having all their possessions confiscated; and that's what Bitcoin is in many cases.
  - gfody 5y ago
    that's an escalation - I would risk my life to fight against a state that threatens life in prison to control something like crypto
    - malermeister 5y ago
      I feel like people sometimes say things like that, but it always ends up sounding naive. The state has tanks and drones that rain death and destruction from the sky. What could the crypto people possibly do to counter that?
      - ric2b 5y ago
        Are you seriously saying that you would be ok with using the army to violently murder civilians because they use some computers that you think use too much energy and don't provide enough value?
      - Sargos 5y ago
        How did all those tanks and drones work out for us in Afghanistan? Or Iraq? Or all of the other places where insurgents tend to win out over slow and bureaucratic militaries.
steelstraw 5y ago
Since when has banning new technology been a good idea? I can't believe how many "technologists" want to take the same policy stance as the CCP on decentralization.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  I don't see this 'new technology' working for the intended purpose it was created for: Paying someone in instantly with less fees in a decentralised P2P manner with an energy efficient and stable blockchain. I see no cryptocurrency that can do this above legitimately. Most of them are owned by questionable foundations, crypto scammers and power hungry VCs.
  - ric2b 5y ago
    Bitcoin does this with the Lightning Network.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    > I don't see this 'new technology' working for the intended purpose it was created for Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody does.
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      It's not just me though, almost everyone can see for what it is right now. A digital Las Vegas casino, where everyone is 'hodling', trying to get rich by losing their money while not using it for payments at all.
      - yellowapple 5y ago
        Okay. That doesn't change the fact that some of us do see it and use it as more than just gambling - and if we're doing so in a way without negative externalities (e.g. via proof-of-stake or literally anything other than proof-of-work), then it seems entirely irrational to want to ban it on the sole basis of "I don't like it therefore nobody should use it".
Zpalmtree 5y ago
I love how the tech bros who are so fast to consider banning cryptography absurd for being math, are frothing at the mouth to ban cryptocurrency.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  Why? is it working?

haswell 5y ago

While certain implementations of crypto are certainly a problem, rallying to ban it seems to imply there are no redeeming qualities and no path forward that addresses the downsides. Is that your position on this, or am I missing something?

IAmEveryone 5y ago
It’s had, what, 13 years? And it’s still a solution in search of a problem.
- haswell 5y ago
  It’s not fair to say that crypto is not solving any problems, or isn’t likely to solve any problems. Thinking specifically about the identity space for a moment, it certainly brings a new approach to solving a set of problems that still has yet to be solved well. Should something be banned on the grounds that it’s not ready yet, or hasn’t evolved fast enough? Plenty of tech on the cutting edge will appear this way before it has matured.
  - IAmEveryone 5y ago
    It also took 13 years from the first splitting of the atom to Hiroshima.
    - haswell 5y ago
      Should Nuclear power be banned? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
  - mvindahl 5y ago
    Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. We could have given them some more time, I guess. Maybe, if given another fifty years, the freon industry might have (waves hands) fixed its issues with the ozone layer. Or maybe not. That wasn’t the trajectory, anyway. Back in 2022, we’re now looking at a technology that has not, for all its promises of a glorious future, has not produced anything but centralized Ponzi-as-a-Service platforms, a way for organized crime to move money, and smokestacks. At least asbestos and freon had some utility.
    - haswell 5y ago
      > Asbestos solved an actual problem, as did freon. Both also created larger problems and were eventually banned. I'd argue there's a bit of false equivalence in this paragraph, but for sake of argument: Leaded gasoline also solved an actual problem, and the industry innovated/evolved beyond that. Facebook solved an actual problem, and created many more. I still recognize its value even if I refuse to use it myself. I'm sure there are edge cases, but history is not generally on the side of those who have pre-emptively banned things before they come to fruition. The problem I see with this current line of discussion is that most proponents of banning throw the baby out with the bathwater, and pretend this is all a single product called "crypto". Banning "crypto" would be like banning insulation because of the issues with Asbestos.
      - mvindahl 5y ago
        In all fairness, I don’t think “crypto” should be banned as such. Partly because it’s a loose and descriptive term, unlike asbestos, which is well defined and tangible. So a blanket ban wouldn’t work. And also because it’s not necessary; existing regulation will get us most of the way: - if you are, in effect, selling a security, let this be regulated this like any other security - if you are, in effect, running a bank, etc. - if your coin X acts like an intermediary for transferring money to hostile jurisdiction Y, then regulate transfers to X like transfers to Y. Forbid these if necessary. - if your manufacturing process is needlessly wasteful then forbid this manufacturing process (globally) under threat of forbidding your product Etc
colesantiago 5y ago
My position is that after 13 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum and all cryptocurrencies I still cannot go to my local shop and buy anything with it.
- haswell 5y ago
  That’s an anecdote, but is your position that because of that, crypto should be banned? In 1999, you probably couldn’t use a Discover card in your local shop either, 13 years after Discover was founded. It took many years and many lawsuits to make headway against Visa/Mastercard. Universal acceptance isn’t the right measuring stick here.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    There's more to that, I would expect Bitcoin and Ethereum to be everywhere in the real world by now. I still don't see any shop around be accepting it, because the majority of people are only holding / investing in cryptocurrency. Not even PayPal is using it for payments [0] Even if a shop uses either of these cryptocurrencies, it is comically slow to be used as such anyway rendering them useless. Not to mention the volatility impact. So please tell me retail shop I can make a purchase using cryptocurrency that is fast, truly decentralised, eco-friendly and doesn't have exorbitant fees. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58277631
    - mthoms 5y ago
      None of what you said is a valid reason for "banning" crypto.
      - colesantiago 5y ago
        I only scratched the surface. We both know the obvious reasons that cryptocurrencies enable rampant ransomware [0], multiple rug pull scams [1], pointless NFTs [2] and is totally unregulated, I'm seeing crypto bros heralding 'we need decentralisation and web3' when this is all owned by VCs [3] And don't get me started on the Tether fraud [4]. I was being _generous_ in seeing if cryptocurrencies passes the 'retail shop test' and it can't even do that without burning the planet up making useless computations. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-crypto-industry-preventing-sanctions-violations-2021-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-treasury-warns-c... [1] https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-scams-pulled-in-28b-this-year-chainalysis/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/12/17/defi-rug-pull-sc... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-millions-on-evolved-apes-nfts-then-they-got-scammed https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dyem/investors-spent-milli... [3] https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ [4] https://archive.is/uPQYe https://archive.is/uPQYe
pjc50 5y ago
It would seem easy enough to ban proof-of-waste and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive. And many places have blanket KYC requirements which using crypto does not exempt you from. The UK has banned crypto derivatives: https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-crypto-derivatives-retail-consumers https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-bans-sale-cry... and Binance. I suspect further action is coming against unregistered crypto outfits marketing to UK consumers.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > and encourage people to get on with deploying the alleged better technologies that never arrive If you're referring to proof-of-stake, that technology has already arrived, seeing as how multiple of the top 10 blockchains by market cap (Solana, Cardano, Terra) use it - and consequently do not have the negative impact on the environment that e.g. Bitcoin and Ethereum currently have.
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    Now there's just the matter of their ponzi scheme structure

gfody 5y ago

you could only drive it into the underground where it sprouted from in the first place, it would inevitably return. the only way to stop this form of crypto is to invent a better one

malermeister 5y ago
If punishments for being discovered were severe enough, I think we could pretty much kill it off. Would you risk life in prison?
- kragen 5y ago
  Often the difference between having money and having no money is life or death. So it's common for people to risk life in prison, or even death, as an alternative to having all their possessions confiscated; and that's what Bitcoin is in many cases.
- gfody 5y ago
  that's an escalation - I would risk my life to fight against a state that threatens life in prison to control something like crypto
  - malermeister 5y ago
    I feel like people sometimes say things like that, but it always ends up sounding naive. The state has tanks and drones that rain death and destruction from the sky. What could the crypto people possibly do to counter that?
    - ric2b 5y ago
      Are you seriously saying that you would be ok with using the army to violently murder civilians because they use some computers that you think use too much energy and don't provide enough value?
    - Sargos 5y ago
      How did all those tanks and drones work out for us in Afghanistan? Or Iraq? Or all of the other places where insurgents tend to win out over slow and bureaucratic militaries.

steelstraw 5y ago

Since when has banning new technology been a good idea? I can't believe how many "technologists" want to take the same policy stance as the CCP on decentralization.

colesantiago 5y ago
I don't see this 'new technology' working for the intended purpose it was created for: Paying someone in instantly with less fees in a decentralised P2P manner with an energy efficient and stable blockchain. I see no cryptocurrency that can do this above legitimately. Most of them are owned by questionable foundations, crypto scammers and power hungry VCs.
- ric2b 5y ago
  Bitcoin does this with the Lightning Network.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > I don't see this 'new technology' working for the intended purpose it was created for Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody does.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    It's not just me though, almost everyone can see for what it is right now. A digital Las Vegas casino, where everyone is 'hodling', trying to get rich by losing their money while not using it for payments at all.
    - yellowapple 5y ago
      Okay. That doesn't change the fact that some of us do see it and use it as more than just gambling - and if we're doing so in a way without negative externalities (e.g. via proof-of-stake or literally anything other than proof-of-work), then it seems entirely irrational to want to ban it on the sole basis of "I don't like it therefore nobody should use it".

Zpalmtree 5y ago

I love how the tech bros who are so fast to consider banning cryptography absurd for being math, are frothing at the mouth to ban cryptocurrency.

colesantiago 5y ago
Why? is it working?