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I’m not pro Bitcoin. I’m just pointing out that your tire burning scheme is the other 99.9%. You like those tires, but not these ones.

woodruffw 5y ago
Maybe it isn't obvious, but even the most egregious excesses in our current economy produce material and economically advantageous (if far from optimal) outcomes: a jet flying from NYC to London physically moves a human being and their possessions between two continents. It's not clear what bitcoin is providing, other that a self-sustaining speculative market. As such, even 0.1% of global emissions is particularly egregious.
- young_unixer 5y ago
  > It's not clear what bitcoin is providing It's pretty clear: 1. A way to store value without it being stolen by governments. 2. A secure way to pay without the fees and limitations that banks and governments impose on us. 3. A way to freely speculate In summary: It's providing financial freedom. If you prefer financial slavery, that's fine, you can still have your fiat money. If emissions are too high, then let's increase emission taxes.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    > 1. A way to store value without it being stolen by governments. I've never understood this. You're still living somewhere; the government can knock down your door and gently rubber hose[1] you into handing over your supposedly state-proof cryptocurrency. Indeed, there's probably a strong positive correlation between "legitimately afraid of the government taking my money" and "my government wouldn't bat an eye at torturing me to get my bitcoins." But for the average bitcoin user, it's more of a LARP than a reality. I think there's ample real-world data against (2), and (3) is, well, the problem. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
    - young_unixer 5y ago
      > the government can knock down your door and gently rubber hose Yes, but that requires more effort than just saying "hey bank, freeze that guy's account" or saying "Hey central bank, just print money like there's no tomorrow" > Indeed, there's probably a strong positive correlation between "legitimately afraid of the government taking my money" and "my government wouldn't bat an eye at torturing me to get my bitcoins." I don't think the correlation is that strong. Government taking your money, or shenanigans like the Argentinian corralito (against 100% innocent people, mind you) can happen even in democratic countries, but it's stranger, and requires more resources for the government to torture you, including psychological torture.

woodruffw 5y ago

Maybe it isn't obvious, but even the most egregious excesses in our current economy produce material and economically advantageous (if far from optimal) outcomes: a jet flying from NYC to London physically moves a human being and their possessions between two continents. It's not clear what bitcoin is providing, other that a self-sustaining speculative market. As such, even 0.1% of global emissions is particularly egregious.

young_unixer 5y ago
> It's not clear what bitcoin is providing It's pretty clear: 1. A way to store value without it being stolen by governments. 2. A secure way to pay without the fees and limitations that banks and governments impose on us. 3. A way to freely speculate In summary: It's providing financial freedom. If you prefer financial slavery, that's fine, you can still have your fiat money. If emissions are too high, then let's increase emission taxes.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  > 1. A way to store value without it being stolen by governments. I've never understood this. You're still living somewhere; the government can knock down your door and gently rubber hose[1] you into handing over your supposedly state-proof cryptocurrency. Indeed, there's probably a strong positive correlation between "legitimately afraid of the government taking my money" and "my government wouldn't bat an eye at torturing me to get my bitcoins." But for the average bitcoin user, it's more of a LARP than a reality. I think there's ample real-world data against (2), and (3) is, well, the problem. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
  - young_unixer 5y ago
    > the government can knock down your door and gently rubber hose Yes, but that requires more effort than just saying "hey bank, freeze that guy's account" or saying "Hey central bank, just print money like there's no tomorrow" > Indeed, there's probably a strong positive correlation between "legitimately afraid of the government taking my money" and "my government wouldn't bat an eye at torturing me to get my bitcoins." I don't think the correlation is that strong. Government taking your money, or shenanigans like the Argentinian corralito (against 100% innocent people, mind you) can happen even in democratic countries, but it's stranger, and requires more resources for the government to torture you, including psychological torture.