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If you're forbidden to do that, what happens when your government forbids you to use crypto for the reasons you just stated? China already did, what's to stop

If you're forbidden to do that, what happens when your government forbids you to use crypto for the reasons you just stated? China already did, what's to stop yours?

buildbuildbuild 5y ago
Many governments forbid getting paid cash under the table, especially without a visa. I believe history will show cryptocurrency to be even more resilient than cash as an international, sometimes private, means of transferring value between individuals. People will do what it takes to survive. Regulations can slow but never stop “illegal” workers.
lezojeda 5y ago
Cryptos are being used as a way of payment and then via a series of conversions and exchanges (to the point that it is ridiculous what we have to do to avoid being robbed by our government) we get our national currency for our daily groceries, bitcoin acceptance is still extremely rare here afaik. And it's mainly freelancers, IT workers, designers, etc. But the number of people who work this way is increasing every year since we are running out of options as well (no jobs besides delivery apps, working for the state doing basically nothing, etc.). Kinda related: IT companies from our country are already complaining that there is an "unfair" competition because we get paid, for example 2000 USD, which is a very low sum for IT workers abroad but is a huge number for us while these companies can't even compete with that number for the same employee. So I believe sooner or later the government will take advantage of their complains to try, somehow, to control the money inflow from people who work for companies abroad.
- mrjangles 5y ago
  Is that 2000 USD a month? Do you know how much a talented computer programmer gets paid in Argentina (or is that what you mean by IT)? I'm thinking that Argentina seems like a good place to go to start a startup. What do you think? What problems would I run into aside from language?
  - akemichan 5y ago
    > Is that 2000 USD a month? Most probably, the average salary here is about 5000-6000USD/year if you're lucky and have a legally registered job(about 5-10% of the population). Most people have informal jobs and make less than that. > Do you know how much a talented computer programmer gets paid in Argentina (or is that what you mean by IT)? I have a friend working for MercadoLibre at a senior engineer position and last time we talked he was making almost 1000USD/month. I work remotely for a foreign company and make 4000USD/month having half of his experience. > I'm thinking that Argentina seems like a good place to go to start a startup. What do you think? What problems would I run into aside from language? As much as I'd love for this country to move forward, companies are leaving more than coming to the country, it's a TERRIBLE place for startups due to: 1. Aggressive taxing that gets worse and worse every year that passes 2. Terribly slow times for legal processes, like getting your paperwork done to start your company 3. We have a track record of the state wanting to confiscate bank funds 4. Depending on the trade you choose, you might face heavy opposition from the current monopolies, like it already happened with taxi unions against Uber, or MercadoLibre putting pressure to prevent Ebay from coming to the country. Maybe if you come from a wealthy country it may not seem like too much of an issue as it might look cheap, but I personally tried to have small business multiple times and time and time again some new government measure or tax or government change made it unsustainable.
twblalock 5y ago
This is exactly what would happen if Argentinians started using cryptocurrency in large numbers, and the government found out about it. A government that wants tight control over currency exchange will treat crypto the same way it treats other foreign currency: limit exchange, or ban it, etc.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Governments haven't been able to stop the flow of tangible drugs and you think they can successfully ban crypto?
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    Last time I checked, blocking ports, domains, IP ranges, et al was trivial in China. A ban doesn't mean that something stops, a ban means that it becomes extremely difficult, a punishable crime, and the risk-to-reward ratio becomes significantly diminished. Likewise, the inverse is also true. CB radio was illegal in the UK, but it was hugely popular, then, overnight, upon it being made legal, it died. Most people lost interest because it was no longer exciting. You see the same thing with legalizing cannabis. Sure, you'll get hardcore consumers and enthusiasts, and people using it for medical reasons, but it's no longer cool/edgy/interesting, and when it is so accessible. Could really go either way, but when it comes to money, people don't tend to fuck around.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      If you think crypto is gone from China, I tihnk you may be mistaken. Argentina isn't the US or UK. There was a video an Argentinian pointed out to me of a vendor selling black-market goods right in front of the tax office. No one gives a fuck. Violating Argentina's insane tax code is sport for their populace. Once you become big enough corruption and ol boy network with the tax authorities will negotiate what percent of your income you lie about, usually you keep like 70% off the books by the account of one accountant from a large construction company I interacted with.
      - 5y ago
tshaddox 5y ago
The commenter already says that there’s a black market for converting pesos to USD, which is forbidden . I’m guessing a lot of that happens in person with cash? I can’t imagine the government could enforce a ban on cryptocurrencies any more effectively than it currently can with cash.
dotnet00 5y ago
China may have banned crypto 'publicly' but by design they would have a hard time truly banning it given that wallet addresses aren't associated with personal identity and blockchains which don't make transactions easily browsable exist too. Their ban has the effect of preventing centralized exchanges from providing services in China. But there's no practical way for them to crack down on decentralized exchanges and/or people trading them in-person. In the above hypothetical case, if his government were to ban use of crypto, he'd still be better off in the sense that the government isn't going to be able to just find the coins hidden in a mattress the way they might with physical money. It'd be illegal either way, but one way would be much harder to trace. This is of course ignoring the volatility involved in holding crypto, which somewhat weakens the stated benefit given that the goal seems to be to avoid volatility of the local currency.

If you're forbidden to do that, what happens when your government forbids you to use crypto for the reasons you just stated? China already did, what's to stop yours?

buildbuildbuild 5y ago

Many governments forbid getting paid cash under the table, especially without a visa. I believe history will show cryptocurrency to be even more resilient than cash as an international, sometimes private, means of transferring value between individuals. People will do what it takes to survive. Regulations can slow but never stop “illegal” workers.

lezojeda 5y ago

Cryptos are being used as a way of payment and then via a series of conversions and exchanges (to the point that it is ridiculous what we have to do to avoid being robbed by our government) we get our national currency for our daily groceries, bitcoin acceptance is still extremely rare here afaik. And it's mainly freelancers, IT workers, designers, etc. But the number of people who work this way is increasing every year since we are running out of options as well (no jobs besides delivery apps, working for the state doing basically nothing, etc.). Kinda related: IT companies from our country are already complaining that there is an "unfair" competition because we get paid, for example 2000 USD, which is a very low sum for IT workers abroad but is a huge number for us while these companies can't even compete with that number for the same employee. So I believe sooner or later the government will take advantage of their complains to try, somehow, to control the money inflow from people who work for companies abroad.

mrjangles 5y ago
Is that 2000 USD a month? Do you know how much a talented computer programmer gets paid in Argentina (or is that what you mean by IT)? I'm thinking that Argentina seems like a good place to go to start a startup. What do you think? What problems would I run into aside from language?
- akemichan 5y ago
  > Is that 2000 USD a month? Most probably, the average salary here is about 5000-6000USD/year if you're lucky and have a legally registered job(about 5-10% of the population). Most people have informal jobs and make less than that. > Do you know how much a talented computer programmer gets paid in Argentina (or is that what you mean by IT)? I have a friend working for MercadoLibre at a senior engineer position and last time we talked he was making almost 1000USD/month. I work remotely for a foreign company and make 4000USD/month having half of his experience. > I'm thinking that Argentina seems like a good place to go to start a startup. What do you think? What problems would I run into aside from language? As much as I'd love for this country to move forward, companies are leaving more than coming to the country, it's a TERRIBLE place for startups due to: 1. Aggressive taxing that gets worse and worse every year that passes 2. Terribly slow times for legal processes, like getting your paperwork done to start your company 3. We have a track record of the state wanting to confiscate bank funds 4. Depending on the trade you choose, you might face heavy opposition from the current monopolies, like it already happened with taxi unions against Uber, or MercadoLibre putting pressure to prevent Ebay from coming to the country. Maybe if you come from a wealthy country it may not seem like too much of an issue as it might look cheap, but I personally tried to have small business multiple times and time and time again some new government measure or tax or government change made it unsustainable.

twblalock 5y ago

This is exactly what would happen if Argentinians started using cryptocurrency in large numbers, and the government found out about it. A government that wants tight control over currency exchange will treat crypto the same way it treats other foreign currency: limit exchange, or ban it, etc.

notch656a 5y ago
Governments haven't been able to stop the flow of tangible drugs and you think they can successfully ban crypto?
- hammyhavoc 5y ago
  Last time I checked, blocking ports, domains, IP ranges, et al was trivial in China. A ban doesn't mean that something stops, a ban means that it becomes extremely difficult, a punishable crime, and the risk-to-reward ratio becomes significantly diminished. Likewise, the inverse is also true. CB radio was illegal in the UK, but it was hugely popular, then, overnight, upon it being made legal, it died. Most people lost interest because it was no longer exciting. You see the same thing with legalizing cannabis. Sure, you'll get hardcore consumers and enthusiasts, and people using it for medical reasons, but it's no longer cool/edgy/interesting, and when it is so accessible. Could really go either way, but when it comes to money, people don't tend to fuck around.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    If you think crypto is gone from China, I tihnk you may be mistaken. Argentina isn't the US or UK. There was a video an Argentinian pointed out to me of a vendor selling black-market goods right in front of the tax office. No one gives a fuck. Violating Argentina's insane tax code is sport for their populace. Once you become big enough corruption and ol boy network with the tax authorities will negotiate what percent of your income you lie about, usually you keep like 70% off the books by the account of one accountant from a large construction company I interacted with.
    - 5y ago

tshaddox 5y ago

The commenter already says that there’s a black market for converting pesos to USD, which is forbidden . I’m guessing a lot of that happens in person with cash? I can’t imagine the government could enforce a ban on cryptocurrencies any more effectively than it currently can with cash.

dotnet00 5y ago

China may have banned crypto 'publicly' but by design they would have a hard time truly banning it given that wallet addresses aren't associated with personal identity and blockchains which don't make transactions easily browsable exist too. Their ban has the effect of preventing centralized exchanges from providing services in China. But there's no practical way for them to crack down on decentralized exchanges and/or people trading them in-person. In the above hypothetical case, if his government were to ban use of crypto, he'd still be better off in the sense that the government isn't going to be able to just find the coins hidden in a mattress the way they might with physical money. It'd be illegal either way, but one way would be much harder to trace. This is of course ignoring the volatility involved in holding crypto, which somewhat weakens the stated benefit given that the goal seems to be to avoid volatility of the local currency.