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Perfect response from @jwz. "Planet-incinerating Ponzi grifter" is an excellent phrase. I suggest we turn "PIPG" into an acronym. edit: For example: "Tesla use

Perfect response from @jwz. "Planet-incinerating Ponzi grifter" is an excellent phrase. I suggest we turn "PIPG" into an acronym. edit: For example: "Tesla used to accept Bitcoin as payment, but once Elon Musk realized that it was making him look like a PIPG, he had to reverse course."

salt-thrower 5y ago
The only catch is it doesn't have intuitive pronunciation. "Pip gee?" Why not just "Planet-Incinerating Grifter," or PIG. Then it also applies to Big Oil executives :)
- mistrial9 5y ago
  definitely direct all rage at crypto people and ignore Big Oil at YNews, where people have a say with crypto but not at all with Big Oil. makes sense when viewed that way
  - rchaud 5y ago
    This is a software forum, and crypto is software. Perhaps a message board for geological engineers might be better for finding criticisms of Big Oil.
    - throwaway946513 5y ago
      I thought by the nature of the forum submissions that it was essentially any STEM-related links or posts would be applicable. Geological Engineers are still considered STEM.
  - salt-thrower 5y ago
    Easier to make fun of crypto because at least oil has obvious real-world utility, and (unfortunately) still props up our economy. Crypto is like a sideshow. It's also a hot new topic which makes it fun to argue about. That's not to defend Big Oil or its shills. That industry should've been hamstrung years ago like the poison market it is. But it might be why HN gets extra riled up about crypto while letting other things slide.
    - chrisco255 5y ago
      It's a $2 trillion sideshow and growing faster than anything else.
    - jkepler 5y ago
      Crypto provides better incentives for strong network security than any other security tech: has the bitcoin protocol base layer ever been compromised? Compare its network security against any other corporate or government network, and see if bitcoin doesn't provide some value. Then look at the ION decentralized identity project Microsoft and others are building in top of it, or Peter Todd's decentralized document integrity attestation project, opentimestamps.org/, or how the bisq.network project has innovated a historically new way of working, where contributors are paid for improving a software project, yet no one is in charge and no funds or data are pooled, avoiding honeypots.
      - salt-thrower 5y ago
        Tons of people and organizations have been building blockchain-based solutions for [vague use case] since like 2010. Announcing that someone is building something on top of the bitcoin protocol is like saying someone is building the next wave of Machine Learning, Big Data, or other [tech buzzword]. I'll believe it when it proves itself in real life, not as a thought experiment or speculation casino.
- boringg 5y ago
  Problem with that is it dilutes the intended audience.
zionic 5y ago
How drunk was he when he posted this? I’m thinking like a 9.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  I don't know jwz personally, but given that his own website redirects all requests with an HN referrer to something NSFW, he probably doesn't have to be drunk to express disdain for something.
  - burnished 5y ago
    So, a link to his post[1] on this would give goatse, I presume from the image currently there? [1] https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/mozilla-blinked/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/mozilla-blinked/
    - cmeacham98 5y ago
      Yes, but sending a referer header only benefits trackers on the internet, so reconfigure your browser not to do that: about:config -> network.http.referer.XOriginPolicy -> set to 2
  - dboreham 5y ago
    I worked at the same place as him. Definitely didn't need to be drunk.
agilob 5y ago
>but once Elon Musk realized that it was making him look like a PIPG, he had to reverse course It has nothing to do with having enough impact (twitter lol) and market analysts to buy very low, announce owning millions of BTC and accepting BTC for Tesla, then selling a month later around peaks. And then doing exactly the same with Doge. Then doing it again in 2021. Oh, yes, the first sentence was about the trading value peak in 2017-2018. Nope, must be a coincidence.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Crypto has gone through what, three or four cycles now and every time the floor gets higher and the ceiling gets higher. The number of applications expands. The transaction volume increases. The liquidity increases. The stable coin value increases (now over $100B). The integrations increase. The startups founded on crypto increase. And the criticisms look less and less sane. Tesla sold 10% of its BTC position. It still holds BTC on the balance sheet.
015a 5y ago
I don't love the characterization of it being a "ponzi scheme"; trying to be catchy is no excuse for being disingenuous and inaccurate. At their core, Ponzi Schemes are investment funds which pay existing investors with funds collected from new investors [1]. There's really no way of looking at cryptocurrency where this is an accurate analysis. Generally, existing cryptocurrency investors are not "paid" by the "fund" (currency) in any capacity. This is true for BTC & ETH, which represent the bulk of the crypto market. The more common argument is that anyone can create a new currency, hype it up, drive market value higher, then exit at the expense of new investors. That's a totally legitimate concern, and it happens far too often; but its not a ponzi scheme. The accurate term would be "pump & dump". There are many shades of gray between a pure pump & dump and something more legitimate. "Hype" (also known as "Marketing") is something every investment vehicle partakes in; from BTC (far beyond the "hype" phase) to DOGE (I'd label that one as "mass insanity") to TSLA (a fraction the revenue of many other auto manufacturers, but significantly higher value? how'd they get there?) to even PFE (this comment is Sponsored by Pfizer [2]). There are obvious examples of this behavior in the crypto community, but its simply not happening among major currencies; taking a pump & dump "scheme" to a billion dollar valuation is exceedingly rare, and there are currently ~90 coins with a market capitalization above $1B. Where one does see it happening, in my opinion, is with (most) NFTs. Many holders won't admit this, but there's no reality where 99% of them will be worth anything after the initial purchase; their goal is to shill and liquidate. However, I'm cautious in extrapolating this concern to the "technology" of NFTs, and even further to all of crypto; its similar to asserting all of emerging med-tech is a scam because Theranos was. Ultimately, investment vehicles don't need to "make sense" to have marketable value; but that doesn't mean critical thinking is unnecessary when evaluating it. There are some currencies, including ETH2, which stake and return an APY on investment. This could adequately, though somewhat inaccurately, be interpreted as being "paid out by the fund"; but the reward doesn't come from new investors. Where it comes from depends on the currency, but with ETH2 it is effectively minted from thin air. This is an inflationary action, which could (again, adequately but inaccurately) be interpreted as "taking money from new investors" (by lowering the value of each ETH they purchased). However, this concern is mitigated by the inflationary effect impacting all ETH holders, not just new investors, and the deflationary counter-effect from london hard-fork transaction fee burning. ETH is currently still inflationary, but only through a delicate balance of PoW-style minting, PoS-style reward issuance, and london fee burning. The zeitgeist in the ETH community right now is to achieve deflation, for better or worse. The statement that proof-of-stake APY represents "being paid out by the fund" in the context of evaluating cryptocurrency as a ponzi scheme, is very tenuous. Crypto is, at least in the US, not a currency; its a USD denominated investment vehicle. Being given more crypto does not "pay out" your USD investment, any more than a stock DRIP would be a "payout", because there is no "out". It does not allow you to exit the investment; on the contrary, it increases your investment. Its totally fair to dislike crypto; I'm certainly in that camp. But its critically important to understand the mechanics, engineering, and economics of why its such a harm to society before one begins levying blind criticism. [1] https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-investments/fraud/types-fraud/ponzi-scheme https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-investments/fraud/type... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uexqgkyFmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uexqgkyFmo

salt-thrower 5y ago

The only catch is it doesn't have intuitive pronunciation. "Pip gee?" Why not just "Planet-Incinerating Grifter," or PIG. Then it also applies to Big Oil executives :)

mistrial9 5y ago
definitely direct all rage at crypto people and ignore Big Oil at YNews, where people have a say with crypto but not at all with Big Oil. makes sense when viewed that way
- rchaud 5y ago
  This is a software forum, and crypto is software. Perhaps a message board for geological engineers might be better for finding criticisms of Big Oil.
  - throwaway946513 5y ago
    I thought by the nature of the forum submissions that it was essentially any STEM-related links or posts would be applicable. Geological Engineers are still considered STEM.
- salt-thrower 5y ago
  Easier to make fun of crypto because at least oil has obvious real-world utility, and (unfortunately) still props up our economy. Crypto is like a sideshow. It's also a hot new topic which makes it fun to argue about. That's not to defend Big Oil or its shills. That industry should've been hamstrung years ago like the poison market it is. But it might be why HN gets extra riled up about crypto while letting other things slide.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    It's a $2 trillion sideshow and growing faster than anything else.
  - jkepler 5y ago
    Crypto provides better incentives for strong network security than any other security tech: has the bitcoin protocol base layer ever been compromised? Compare its network security against any other corporate or government network, and see if bitcoin doesn't provide some value. Then look at the ION decentralized identity project Microsoft and others are building in top of it, or Peter Todd's decentralized document integrity attestation project, opentimestamps.org/, or how the bisq.network project has innovated a historically new way of working, where contributors are paid for improving a software project, yet no one is in charge and no funds or data are pooled, avoiding honeypots.
    - salt-thrower 5y ago
      Tons of people and organizations have been building blockchain-based solutions for [vague use case] since like 2010. Announcing that someone is building something on top of the bitcoin protocol is like saying someone is building the next wave of Machine Learning, Big Data, or other [tech buzzword]. I'll believe it when it proves itself in real life, not as a thought experiment or speculation casino.
boringg 5y ago
Problem with that is it dilutes the intended audience.

zionic 5y ago

How drunk was he when he posted this? I’m thinking like a 9.

nitrogen 5y ago
I don't know jwz personally, but given that his own website redirects all requests with an HN referrer to something NSFW, he probably doesn't have to be drunk to express disdain for something.
- burnished 5y ago
  So, a link to his post[1] on this would give goatse, I presume from the image currently there? [1] https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/mozilla-blinked/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/mozilla-blinked/
  - cmeacham98 5y ago
    Yes, but sending a referer header only benefits trackers on the internet, so reconfigure your browser not to do that: about:config -> network.http.referer.XOriginPolicy -> set to 2
- dboreham 5y ago
  I worked at the same place as him. Definitely didn't need to be drunk.

agilob 5y ago

>but once Elon Musk realized that it was making him look like a PIPG, he had to reverse course It has nothing to do with having enough impact (twitter lol) and market analysts to buy very low, announce owning millions of BTC and accepting BTC for Tesla, then selling a month later around peaks. And then doing exactly the same with Doge. Then doing it again in 2021. Oh, yes, the first sentence was about the trading value peak in 2017-2018. Nope, must be a coincidence.

chrisco255 5y ago
Crypto has gone through what, three or four cycles now and every time the floor gets higher and the ceiling gets higher. The number of applications expands. The transaction volume increases. The liquidity increases. The stable coin value increases (now over $100B). The integrations increase. The startups founded on crypto increase. And the criticisms look less and less sane. Tesla sold 10% of its BTC position. It still holds BTC on the balance sheet.

015a 5y ago

I don't love the characterization of it being a "ponzi scheme"; trying to be catchy is no excuse for being disingenuous and inaccurate. At their core, Ponzi Schemes are investment funds which pay existing investors with funds collected from new investors [1]. There's really no way of looking at cryptocurrency where this is an accurate analysis. Generally, existing cryptocurrency investors are not "paid" by the "fund" (currency) in any capacity. This is true for BTC & ETH, which represent the bulk of the crypto market. The more common argument is that anyone can create a new currency, hype it up, drive market value higher, then exit at the expense of new investors. That's a totally legitimate concern, and it happens far too often; but its not a ponzi scheme. The accurate term would be "pump & dump". There are many shades of gray between a pure pump & dump and something more legitimate. "Hype" (also known as "Marketing") is something every investment vehicle partakes in; from BTC (far beyond the "hype" phase) to DOGE (I'd label that one as "mass insanity") to TSLA (a fraction the revenue of many other auto manufacturers, but significantly higher value? how'd they get there?) to even PFE (this comment is Sponsored by Pfizer [2]). There are obvious examples of this behavior in the crypto community, but its simply not happening among major currencies; taking a pump & dump "scheme" to a billion dollar valuation is exceedingly rare, and there are currently ~90 coins with a market capitalization above $1B. Where one does see it happening, in my opinion, is with (most) NFTs. Many holders won't admit this, but there's no reality where 99% of them will be worth anything after the initial purchase; their goal is to shill and liquidate. However, I'm cautious in extrapolating this concern to the "technology" of NFTs, and even further to all of crypto; its similar to asserting all of emerging med-tech is a scam because Theranos was. Ultimately, investment vehicles don't need to "make sense" to have marketable value; but that doesn't mean critical thinking is unnecessary when evaluating it. There are some currencies, including ETH2, which stake and return an APY on investment. This could adequately, though somewhat inaccurately, be interpreted as being "paid out by the fund"; but the reward doesn't come from new investors. Where it comes from depends on the currency, but with ETH2 it is effectively minted from thin air. This is an inflationary action, which could (again, adequately but inaccurately) be interpreted as "taking money from new investors" (by lowering the value of each ETH they purchased). However, this concern is mitigated by the inflationary effect impacting all ETH holders, not just new investors, and the deflationary counter-effect from london hard-fork transaction fee burning. ETH is currently still inflationary, but only through a delicate balance of PoW-style minting, PoS-style reward issuance, and london fee burning. The zeitgeist in the ETH community right now is to achieve deflation, for better or worse. The statement that proof-of-stake APY represents "being paid out by the fund" in the context of evaluating cryptocurrency as a ponzi scheme, is very tenuous. Crypto is, at least in the US, not a currency; its a USD denominated investment vehicle. Being given more crypto does not "pay out" your USD investment, any more than a stock DRIP would be a "payout", because there is no "out". It does not allow you to exit the investment; on the contrary, it increases your investment. Its totally fair to dislike crypto; I'm certainly in that camp. But its critically important to understand the mechanics, engineering, and economics of why its such a harm to society before one begins levying blind criticism. [1] https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-investments/fraud/types-fraud/ponzi-scheme https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-investments/fraud/type... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uexqgkyFmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uexqgkyFmo