7 ms·

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them"

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather symptoms of a broader societal pathology of which homelessness is just another symptom. As long as things keep going the way they're going, where wealth and power are increasingly concentrating in fewer and fewer hands, we're just going to see more and more homelessness, especially with the financialization of housing that's current ongoing at a disturbing and accelerating rate.

nate_meurer 5y ago
> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".
- jseliger 5y ago
  They are a cause, but they're exacerbated by high housing prices that are in turn caused by land restrictions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29193206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29193206
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Even your crazed schizophrenic wants a home to sleep in. A warm bed during the cold, and a roof to keep out the rain. Its not like crazed schizophrenics are inhuman or whatever. And a home won't solve their mental problems. But getting them off the streets (by finding cheap enough housing for them to afford) solves a lot of other issues. They still have stress, both physical and mental. And that stress could be making it harder for them to deal with their mental issues. Depending on the state of their delusion, it might be possible for them to hold a job as well. Maybe you need some social-workers checking in on them depending on how bad the mental illness is, but even schizophrenics are still able to make meaningful contributions to society in the right environment (ex: John Forbes Nash Jr.). -------- The goal isn't to solve mental diseases, but to build environments where people inflicted with those mental diseases can still be of net-benefit to society. We all can agree that a __HOMELESS__ crazed schizophrinic is worse than a crazed schizophrinic, right? Solving the homeless problem is a step in the right direction, even if the delusions are unsolvable. And again: plenty of schizophrinics are high-functioning enough to check into the doctor, mental care, social workers, etc. etc. They can act independently, hold jobs and benefit society. That's probably one of the worst diseases to have but even then its not a hopeless situation.
  - wahern 5y ago
    > Even your crazed schizophrenic wants a home to sleep in. Actually, no. Some crazed schizophrenics simply are unable to live in a stable environment without being coerced, precisely because their affliction effects their ability to think and behave in a manner conducive to maintaining their own health and safety. And that's just one end of an entire spectrum of distorted thinking. At the opposite end of that spectrum is... nobody, because nobody is perfectly rational. This is why we have a horrendous problem now, because too many people approach the issues by imagining themselves in these situations, imposing their own desires and fears. But that's not empathy; that's about as selfish as you can get. Empathy is about imagining yourself as another person, not imagining oneself simply physically swapping circumstances.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Have you talked to homeless people? A lot of them just don't have enough money to get a house. Have you ever met a schizophrinic before? Its not like they're off the loony bin / completely off their rocker, its actually pretty similar to QAnon-style conspiracy theorists. They have some delusions and have difficulty accepting which facts are real or not. But that's not enough of a reason to prevent them from holding a stable job or house. ----- Have you studied John Forbes Nash Jr.? A celebrated mathematician, the one who discovered "Nash Equalibrium"? He's literally diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and never suffered from homelessness. Its not like "bam, I'm mentally unstable, lol I don't want my house anymore". That's the stuff of crappy Hollywood stories, and has no basis in reality. In most cases, any person, be they crazy / delusional / schizo / mentally sick or normal, will want a warm place to sleep and the rain out of their clothes. They'll need various amounts of care. Maybe a few drugs is sufficient to hold off their worst symptoms. Maybe socialization / keeping up with friends is what's needed. Hard to say exactly, I'm not a psychologist. But from what I've seen and experienced, mental illness is not an excuse for homelessness. Not at all. ----- Homeless people, the ones I meet and interact with, are people who don't have enough money for a home. They've been kicked out of their apartment and don't know what to do. Maybe they're crazy, maybe they're schizo as well. But even if they are, that doesn't change the fundamental issue (ie: their lack of money, their inability to afford a home right now).
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  https://www.bbrfoundation.org/blog/homelessness-and-mental-illness-challenge-our-society https://www.bbrfoundation.org/blog/homelessness-and-mental-i... > Most researchers agree that the connection between homelessness and mental illness is a complicated, two-way relationship. An individual’s mental illness may lead to cognitive and behavioral problems that make it difficult to earn a stable income or to carry out daily activities in ways that encourage stable housing. Several studies have shown, however, that individuals with mental illnesses often find themselves homeless primarily as the result of poverty and a lack of low-income housing. That was a summary article that lists some sources at the bottom. Aside from the research, it makes intuitive sense to me as well. Even high severity mental illness is not exclusive or close to exclusive to homeless populations. For every mental illness you find in a homeless person, you can usually find a non-homeless person who has managed it with social support and/or medication. It doesn't make sense to portray homelessness as a causal outcome of mental illness that won't be affected by social & economic policy.
dragontamer 5y ago
> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." Make cheaper houses. Other areas of the country mass-produces mobile homes, trailer parks, and other low-income options. Sure, you now have "ghettos", but a ghetto is preferable to homelessness. Target $50,000 homes or cheaper, and build lots of them. Yes, $50k. Maybe $20k. These people can't afford too much. Build them close enough to areas where the homeless can find jobs, and enough public transit options to support them so that they can do useful work as well. ------ "Ghettos" are unavoidable, and much preferred over homelessness. The next step is how to improve the lives of people in Ghettos (ex: the low-education, high-crime, poor justice), but you must start with shelter before you can make progress.
- zeruch 5y ago
  ""Ghettos" are unavoidable, and much preferred over homelessness." The former doesn't have to be endemic, and not the default option for the latter.
- FuWeiShi 5y ago
  [dead]
treeman79 5y ago
Easy. But you won’t like it. Eliminate minimum wage and most worker protections. Make lawsuits more difficult. Eliminate all non private handouts. Remove most restrictions on housing density. Lower tax rates. Basically be Hong Kong back before China took over. Only the most severe cases will end up on street. Everyone else will have some level of income and housing will be cheap. Private charity can handle the most extreme cases.
- FuWeiShi 5y ago
- diag 5y ago
  Only the most extreme cases would end up on the street because the rest will die. That's a fundamentally antisocial approach that will lead to people being exploited to death.
Reichhardt 5y ago
> How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place Pay people to get sterilized. Right now our current welfare system encourages homeless women to have children - since they are immediately granted public housing. Offering homeless men $5,000 and women $10,000 for vasectomies and tube tying will save a fortune in welfare costs and end the cycle of poverty.
- xkbarkar 5y ago
  This comment has to be one of the most vile things I have read in a long time. Even surpasses the hermaincain and coronavirus subreddits in horrific commentary. You think homeless people only come from other homeless people? Even if this is just a bot or troll account. If anyone reading this actually has this thoughtprocess as a solution. Please, volounteer. Soup kitchen for example. The homeless are not a substandard human race meant to be exterminated. Has the dehumanization of unvaccinated westerners started to set this kind commenters of commenters to think they are mainstream enough to actually post things like this? This would have been unheard of in 2019. You DO NOT under any circumstances enforce invoulontary medical procedures on a living human being. EVER!!!! No exceptions. What the hell are we becoming?
  - thatguy0900 5y ago
    "You DO NOT under any circumstances enforce invoulontary medical procedures on a living human being. EVER!!!! No exceptions. What the hell are we becoming?" Well, in fairness, paying people to do it is hardly involuntary.
  - marcusverus 5y ago
    If the parent comment had advocated for the terrible things you’ve railed against, your comment would make a lot of sense.
  - Reichhardt 5y ago
    We are forcing experimental mRNA vaccines on billions of people, for no gain (explicitly in the case of those who already have natural immunity) - primarily for the profits of big pharma. Many people voluntarily seek out birth control. Its difficult for homeless people to manage that long-term. Vasagel is also a solution for homeless men. Long-term implants can be used for women.
exolymph 5y ago
> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." This is impossible. Scarcity is not a solved problem, but on top of that, some people choose to be homeless. That their choice seems miserable and irrational doesn't make it less of a choice — people choose all sorts of unpleasant things. Example: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-san-francisco-fentanyl-addiction/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-s... (If addiction in particular didn't involve a component of choice, nobody would be able to choose to escape, with or without help, and thankfully some people do.)

nate_meurer 5y ago

> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".

jseliger 5y ago
They are a cause, but they're exacerbated by high housing prices that are in turn caused by land restrictions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29193206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29193206
dragontamer 5y ago
Even your crazed schizophrenic wants a home to sleep in. A warm bed during the cold, and a roof to keep out the rain. Its not like crazed schizophrenics are inhuman or whatever. And a home won't solve their mental problems. But getting them off the streets (by finding cheap enough housing for them to afford) solves a lot of other issues. They still have stress, both physical and mental. And that stress could be making it harder for them to deal with their mental issues. Depending on the state of their delusion, it might be possible for them to hold a job as well. Maybe you need some social-workers checking in on them depending on how bad the mental illness is, but even schizophrenics are still able to make meaningful contributions to society in the right environment (ex: John Forbes Nash Jr.). -------- The goal isn't to solve mental diseases, but to build environments where people inflicted with those mental diseases can still be of net-benefit to society. We all can agree that a __HOMELESS__ crazed schizophrinic is worse than a crazed schizophrinic, right? Solving the homeless problem is a step in the right direction, even if the delusions are unsolvable. And again: plenty of schizophrinics are high-functioning enough to check into the doctor, mental care, social workers, etc. etc. They can act independently, hold jobs and benefit society. That's probably one of the worst diseases to have but even then its not a hopeless situation.
- wahern 5y ago
  > Even your crazed schizophrenic wants a home to sleep in. Actually, no. Some crazed schizophrenics simply are unable to live in a stable environment without being coerced, precisely because their affliction effects their ability to think and behave in a manner conducive to maintaining their own health and safety. And that's just one end of an entire spectrum of distorted thinking. At the opposite end of that spectrum is... nobody, because nobody is perfectly rational. This is why we have a horrendous problem now, because too many people approach the issues by imagining themselves in these situations, imposing their own desires and fears. But that's not empathy; that's about as selfish as you can get. Empathy is about imagining yourself as another person, not imagining oneself simply physically swapping circumstances.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Have you talked to homeless people? A lot of them just don't have enough money to get a house. Have you ever met a schizophrinic before? Its not like they're off the loony bin / completely off their rocker, its actually pretty similar to QAnon-style conspiracy theorists. They have some delusions and have difficulty accepting which facts are real or not. But that's not enough of a reason to prevent them from holding a stable job or house. ----- Have you studied John Forbes Nash Jr.? A celebrated mathematician, the one who discovered "Nash Equalibrium"? He's literally diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and never suffered from homelessness. Its not like "bam, I'm mentally unstable, lol I don't want my house anymore". That's the stuff of crappy Hollywood stories, and has no basis in reality. In most cases, any person, be they crazy / delusional / schizo / mentally sick or normal, will want a warm place to sleep and the rain out of their clothes. They'll need various amounts of care. Maybe a few drugs is sufficient to hold off their worst symptoms. Maybe socialization / keeping up with friends is what's needed. Hard to say exactly, I'm not a psychologist. But from what I've seen and experienced, mental illness is not an excuse for homelessness. Not at all. ----- Homeless people, the ones I meet and interact with, are people who don't have enough money for a home. They've been kicked out of their apartment and don't know what to do. Maybe they're crazy, maybe they're schizo as well. But even if they are, that doesn't change the fundamental issue (ie: their lack of money, their inability to afford a home right now).
themacguffinman 5y ago
https://www.bbrfoundation.org/blog/homelessness-and-mental-illness-challenge-our-society https://www.bbrfoundation.org/blog/homelessness-and-mental-i... > Most researchers agree that the connection between homelessness and mental illness is a complicated, two-way relationship. An individual’s mental illness may lead to cognitive and behavioral problems that make it difficult to earn a stable income or to carry out daily activities in ways that encourage stable housing. Several studies have shown, however, that individuals with mental illnesses often find themselves homeless primarily as the result of poverty and a lack of low-income housing. That was a summary article that lists some sources at the bottom. Aside from the research, it makes intuitive sense to me as well. Even high severity mental illness is not exclusive or close to exclusive to homeless populations. For every mental illness you find in a homeless person, you can usually find a non-homeless person who has managed it with social support and/or medication. It doesn't make sense to portray homelessness as a causal outcome of mental illness that won't be affected by social & economic policy.

dragontamer 5y ago

> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." Make cheaper houses. Other areas of the country mass-produces mobile homes, trailer parks, and other low-income options. Sure, you now have "ghettos", but a ghetto is preferable to homelessness. Target $50,000 homes or cheaper, and build lots of them. Yes, $50k. Maybe $20k. These people can't afford too much. Build them close enough to areas where the homeless can find jobs, and enough public transit options to support them so that they can do useful work as well. ------ "Ghettos" are unavoidable, and much preferred over homelessness. The next step is how to improve the lives of people in Ghettos (ex: the low-education, high-crime, poor justice), but you must start with shelter before you can make progress.

zeruch 5y ago
""Ghettos" are unavoidable, and much preferred over homelessness." The former doesn't have to be endemic, and not the default option for the latter.
FuWeiShi 5y ago
[dead]

treeman79 5y ago

Easy. But you won’t like it. Eliminate minimum wage and most worker protections. Make lawsuits more difficult. Eliminate all non private handouts. Remove most restrictions on housing density. Lower tax rates. Basically be Hong Kong back before China took over. Only the most severe cases will end up on street. Everyone else will have some level of income and housing will be cheap. Private charity can handle the most extreme cases.

FuWeiShi 5y ago
diag 5y ago
Only the most extreme cases would end up on the street because the rest will die. That's a fundamentally antisocial approach that will lead to people being exploited to death.

Reichhardt 5y ago

> How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place Pay people to get sterilized. Right now our current welfare system encourages homeless women to have children - since they are immediately granted public housing. Offering homeless men $5,000 and women $10,000 for vasectomies and tube tying will save a fortune in welfare costs and end the cycle of poverty.

xkbarkar 5y ago
This comment has to be one of the most vile things I have read in a long time. Even surpasses the hermaincain and coronavirus subreddits in horrific commentary. You think homeless people only come from other homeless people? Even if this is just a bot or troll account. If anyone reading this actually has this thoughtprocess as a solution. Please, volounteer. Soup kitchen for example. The homeless are not a substandard human race meant to be exterminated. Has the dehumanization of unvaccinated westerners started to set this kind commenters of commenters to think they are mainstream enough to actually post things like this? This would have been unheard of in 2019. You DO NOT under any circumstances enforce invoulontary medical procedures on a living human being. EVER!!!! No exceptions. What the hell are we becoming?
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  "You DO NOT under any circumstances enforce invoulontary medical procedures on a living human being. EVER!!!! No exceptions. What the hell are we becoming?" Well, in fairness, paying people to do it is hardly involuntary.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  If the parent comment had advocated for the terrible things you’ve railed against, your comment would make a lot of sense.
- Reichhardt 5y ago
  We are forcing experimental mRNA vaccines on billions of people, for no gain (explicitly in the case of those who already have natural immunity) - primarily for the profits of big pharma. Many people voluntarily seek out birth control. Its difficult for homeless people to manage that long-term. Vasagel is also a solution for homeless men. Long-term implants can be used for women.

exolymph 5y ago

> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." This is impossible. Scarcity is not a solved problem, but on top of that, some people choose to be homeless. That their choice seems miserable and irrational doesn't make it less of a choice — people choose all sorts of unpleasant things. Example: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-san-francisco-fentanyl-addiction/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-s... (If addiction in particular didn't involve a component of choice, nobody would be able to choose to escape, with or without help, and thankfully some people do.)