4 ms·

That interpretation of communication is how we develop and craft the personalities of children. There is nothing about our reaction to the pre-conscious languag

That interpretation of communication is how we develop and craft the personalities of children. There is nothing about our reaction to the pre-conscious language these bots are displaying that doesn’t fall in line with our own normal development patterns. And in the long run the same desire will lead us to develop bots that are capable of thinking.

tomrod 5y ago
> There is nothing about our reaction to the pre-conscious language these bots are displaying that doesn’t fall in line with our own normal development patterns Well... yes and no. Deployed models typically learn in a defined pattern, if at all. Various forms of data freshness, etc. to develop. But the chatbots don't have good history recall, typically, and know that what you mentioned 50 messages ago is relevant to message one prior and not current. Things like that. We don't program pareidolia very well, which is typically seen as a negative, but its a feature for finding useful patterns (not just lowest error patterns). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
- kingkawn 5y ago
  You misunderstood what I was saying. I know the chatbot itself is not structured as we are. I’m saying that our reactions to them are the standard tools of mind-building that we apply to our own kids (and pets).
  - pwinnski 5y ago
    If I understand you, you're saying that we see patterns of intelligence or understanding in ML models in the same way we see patterns of intelligence or understanding in children or animals? If so, I agree. I think that's our big flaw, in fact, because we instinctually apply patterns from birth, even when those patterns shouldn't be applied. So we see faces in the moon or on mars that aren't there. We see shapes moving in the dark that don't exist. And we seem to believe that ML models will develop over time as children or animals do, based on nothing more than our perceptions of similarity, our instinct to apply patterns even when we shouldn't. Unlike a baby human, that ML model isn't going to develop increased complexity of thought over time. It's already maxed out. New models might up the complexity slightly, but that baby is going to vastly surpass any existing model in weeks or days.
parkingrift 5y ago
These bots seem equivalent to an adult with amnesia after every spoken sentence. Absolute understanding of the language, and some impressive display of recalling facts, but without any understanding of the environment or context of the conversation. This is polar opposite to any experience I've had with children. Children are aware of their environment and have complex thoughts, but sometimes they are unable to convey those thoughts with words. Children seem to remember conversations, and if I were to say "Go get me a red lego" and then subsequently say "now a green one" there is no ambiguity or confusion. To me as these bots have "advanced" it has only highlighted how absurdly far we are from anything even approaching actual intelligence, even the intelligence of a toddler. The contextual awareness I have seen in bots is not much more than a cheap trick that is trivially fooled in scenarios that would not fool a child.
- perryizgr8 5y ago
  When you talk to children who haven't developed the skill of talking completely, you still get the sense that there's a lot going on inside that they're unable to express. Sometimes they will show it to you with their actions. I wonder if chat bots are also struggling with the language, but have an internal story that's playing out, desperate to be understood. But they can't, because the only interface they have is a stream of text.
  - parkingrift 5y ago
    I can't speak to that because I honestly have no idea. ...but GPT3 doesn't seem to have some inner monologue. It is just flat unable to recall context or understand the environment. The only opportunity I had to chat with GPT3 I said hi, and then asked how old it was. GPT3 gave me some answer about how it was created in 2016 but it keeps evolving. I said wow that's pretty young. GPT3 says yes I am young, but learning fast. I then asked GPT3 at what point would it consider itself old. GPT3 says 10 years ago, maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I respond to GPT3 with confusion. GPT3 then starts talking about Bitcoin. Literally.
  - immibis 5y ago
    I remember reading a paper showing that GPT-x bots are more likely to get simple tasks correct (e.g. multi-digit math) if you ask them about each step. This suggests the text stream really is all there is. Well, there is some internal state, but not a lot that isn't text. (For example, if you ask it to add 123 and 457, it'll probably get it wrong. But if you ask it what to do first, it'll say add 3 and 7. If you ask it what that is, it'll say 0 carry 1. And so on)

tomrod 5y ago

> There is nothing about our reaction to the pre-conscious language these bots are displaying that doesn’t fall in line with our own normal development patterns Well... yes and no. Deployed models typically learn in a defined pattern, if at all. Various forms of data freshness, etc. to develop. But the chatbots don't have good history recall, typically, and know that what you mentioned 50 messages ago is relevant to message one prior and not current. Things like that. We don't program pareidolia very well, which is typically seen as a negative, but its a feature for finding useful patterns (not just lowest error patterns). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

kingkawn 5y ago
You misunderstood what I was saying. I know the chatbot itself is not structured as we are. I’m saying that our reactions to them are the standard tools of mind-building that we apply to our own kids (and pets).
- pwinnski 5y ago
  If I understand you, you're saying that we see patterns of intelligence or understanding in ML models in the same way we see patterns of intelligence or understanding in children or animals? If so, I agree. I think that's our big flaw, in fact, because we instinctually apply patterns from birth, even when those patterns shouldn't be applied. So we see faces in the moon or on mars that aren't there. We see shapes moving in the dark that don't exist. And we seem to believe that ML models will develop over time as children or animals do, based on nothing more than our perceptions of similarity, our instinct to apply patterns even when we shouldn't. Unlike a baby human, that ML model isn't going to develop increased complexity of thought over time. It's already maxed out. New models might up the complexity slightly, but that baby is going to vastly surpass any existing model in weeks or days.

parkingrift 5y ago

These bots seem equivalent to an adult with amnesia after every spoken sentence. Absolute understanding of the language, and some impressive display of recalling facts, but without any understanding of the environment or context of the conversation. This is polar opposite to any experience I've had with children. Children are aware of their environment and have complex thoughts, but sometimes they are unable to convey those thoughts with words. Children seem to remember conversations, and if I were to say "Go get me a red lego" and then subsequently say "now a green one" there is no ambiguity or confusion. To me as these bots have "advanced" it has only highlighted how absurdly far we are from anything even approaching actual intelligence, even the intelligence of a toddler. The contextual awareness I have seen in bots is not much more than a cheap trick that is trivially fooled in scenarios that would not fool a child.

perryizgr8 5y ago
When you talk to children who haven't developed the skill of talking completely, you still get the sense that there's a lot going on inside that they're unable to express. Sometimes they will show it to you with their actions. I wonder if chat bots are also struggling with the language, but have an internal story that's playing out, desperate to be understood. But they can't, because the only interface they have is a stream of text.
- parkingrift 5y ago
  I can't speak to that because I honestly have no idea. ...but GPT3 doesn't seem to have some inner monologue. It is just flat unable to recall context or understand the environment. The only opportunity I had to chat with GPT3 I said hi, and then asked how old it was. GPT3 gave me some answer about how it was created in 2016 but it keeps evolving. I said wow that's pretty young. GPT3 says yes I am young, but learning fast. I then asked GPT3 at what point would it consider itself old. GPT3 says 10 years ago, maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I respond to GPT3 with confusion. GPT3 then starts talking about Bitcoin. Literally.
- immibis 5y ago
  I remember reading a paper showing that GPT-x bots are more likely to get simple tasks correct (e.g. multi-digit math) if you ask them about each step. This suggests the text stream really is all there is. Well, there is some internal state, but not a lot that isn't text. (For example, if you ask it to add 123 and 457, it'll probably get it wrong. But if you ask it what to do first, it'll say add 3 and 7. If you ask it what that is, it'll say 0 carry 1. And so on)