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> less exploration by kids today. I don't see how this can be true. By the time I started high school a decade ago I realized that 90% of human knowledge was f

> less exploration by kids today. I don't see how this can be true. By the time I started high school a decade ago I realized that 90% of human knowledge was freely available to me on the internet. And I explored every crevice of it. The world is at our fingertips in a way it never was before.

giantg2 5y ago
Yes, information is accessible. I don't really call that exploration unless they are doing something with it for real. You can watch all the YouTube videos or read Wikipedia articles, but that's lacking if there's no real world experience/implementation. Watch a video with a science experiment? Great, now try it. It also can't teach how to be independent, interact with friends, or what to do if you get lost (without having your cell phone solve it for you). My friends and I would ride our bikes around the neighborhood and on trails, go fishing, build lean-tos or whatever in the woods, shoot model rockets, play sports, etc. Sure, some TV and video games too. We even had dial-up later on. But we were out in the world, being active, and thinking for ourselves. Those experiences are much more formative than consuming content created by someone else.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I think this is a lot of nostalgia talking. Learning things through the internet absolutely forced me to be independent. If I wanted to find something all I needed was to look for it. Instant messaging made it easier to interact with friends, not harder. I can't deny that the experiences youth have today are different than those that were had pre-internet, but I will absolutely push back against the notion that they are worse. Building stuff with your hands is undoubtedly a cherished childhood experience for many, but just because kids are interacting over the internet doesn't mean they're not thinking for themselves. In fact, I would say they're thinking for themselves even more since the options are so much vaster. Is building an elaborate world in minecraft or roblox really that different from building lean-tos or model rockets?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "Is building an elaborate world in minecraft or roblox really that different from building lean-tos or model rockets?" Is building software that much different from construction? I think so. "If I wanted to find something all I needed was to look for it." True, but most of the content is just someone else's. If you wanted to find something out when I was a kid, you formed a hypothesis and tested it - not just taking the word of someone on the internet. The internet can be useful for information, but not as much for knowledge and possibly even less for wisdom. "Instant messaging made it easier to interact with friends, not harder." Maybe sort of. I don't think it's quite the same as in-person. I think we are seeing this on a mass scale with pandemic restrictions too - that virtual presence isn't the same as physical presence. How does one learn to handle emotions in person rather than just shut if the computer when an argument arises?
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      > Is building software that much different from construction? I think so. Really I think this comes down to what you think makes experiences valuable. Obviously virtual and physical construction aren't the same, but do they provide the same benefits? It seems to me that building things is a valuable experience because it teaches kids about hard work, grit, teamwork, perhaps curiosity, and makes all those things fun. Building things virtually seems to me to provide all those same things. Maybe you think getting your hands dirty had some value, in which case yea kids are missing out, but I generally think they're able to get many of the same things with the added benefit of increased use of imagination since they can literally build anything. Now obviously the internet is what you make of it. Like anything the the internet can be a crutch or a tool. Kids can sit in front of youtube for 10 hours a day and learn nothing from it, but I'm not sure that wasn't also the case in the past. Keeping children on track probably requires more parental oversight than in the past, but I'm not exactly sure that's a bad thing either. Exploring the internet together with your child can easily be a way to bond with them while also creating a lifelong love of building and curiosity.
  - novok 5y ago
    The big issue is you can't let your kids go outside, unsupervised, and go make friends with other kids in the neighborhood until about 12, which by that point they're basically teens and in a completely different stage of life. Before the 80s, you were able to do that. If you do, there is a chance that you get stressful CPS visits, criminal charges or your child taken away from you. And because nobody else is doing it, if you decide to be a rebel the kid will have nobody to play with anyway. Kids used to be way less of a time investment. There were more around, and they very easily latched on to playing with other neighborhood kids all day which acted like free daycare. You could send them out and tell them to be back before dark, feed them food, have family dinners, fix their boo boos and not much else. Now in today's limited age, kids can only play with their literal line of sight neighbors unsupervised and are mostly stuck inside, dependent on a parent to become a playmate because they eventually get bored of the video games. Or they get obsessed to an unhealthy degree. The independence you talk about is another kind, but still a dependent kind on the parents. I think a cell phone coordinated childhood with the permissiveness of the 70s is the ideal + all the info of the internet, but it's not something you can do in english countries. There is also a curse-of-knowledge aspect to today's age. The average teen does not seem to deal well with instagram and cell phones, especially girls. It's unique. I think society will eventually create an immune system to universal cellphones and social media, much like we did with TV, but until then we are dealing with it downside more than we should.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
How many trees did you climb?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Why?

giantg2 5y ago

Yes, information is accessible. I don't really call that exploration unless they are doing something with it for real. You can watch all the YouTube videos or read Wikipedia articles, but that's lacking if there's no real world experience/implementation. Watch a video with a science experiment? Great, now try it. It also can't teach how to be independent, interact with friends, or what to do if you get lost (without having your cell phone solve it for you). My friends and I would ride our bikes around the neighborhood and on trails, go fishing, build lean-tos or whatever in the woods, shoot model rockets, play sports, etc. Sure, some TV and video games too. We even had dial-up later on. But we were out in the world, being active, and thinking for ourselves. Those experiences are much more formative than consuming content created by someone else.

colinmhayes 5y ago
I think this is a lot of nostalgia talking. Learning things through the internet absolutely forced me to be independent. If I wanted to find something all I needed was to look for it. Instant messaging made it easier to interact with friends, not harder. I can't deny that the experiences youth have today are different than those that were had pre-internet, but I will absolutely push back against the notion that they are worse. Building stuff with your hands is undoubtedly a cherished childhood experience for many, but just because kids are interacting over the internet doesn't mean they're not thinking for themselves. In fact, I would say they're thinking for themselves even more since the options are so much vaster. Is building an elaborate world in minecraft or roblox really that different from building lean-tos or model rockets?
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Is building an elaborate world in minecraft or roblox really that different from building lean-tos or model rockets?" Is building software that much different from construction? I think so. "If I wanted to find something all I needed was to look for it." True, but most of the content is just someone else's. If you wanted to find something out when I was a kid, you formed a hypothesis and tested it - not just taking the word of someone on the internet. The internet can be useful for information, but not as much for knowledge and possibly even less for wisdom. "Instant messaging made it easier to interact with friends, not harder." Maybe sort of. I don't think it's quite the same as in-person. I think we are seeing this on a mass scale with pandemic restrictions too - that virtual presence isn't the same as physical presence. How does one learn to handle emotions in person rather than just shut if the computer when an argument arises?
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    > Is building software that much different from construction? I think so. Really I think this comes down to what you think makes experiences valuable. Obviously virtual and physical construction aren't the same, but do they provide the same benefits? It seems to me that building things is a valuable experience because it teaches kids about hard work, grit, teamwork, perhaps curiosity, and makes all those things fun. Building things virtually seems to me to provide all those same things. Maybe you think getting your hands dirty had some value, in which case yea kids are missing out, but I generally think they're able to get many of the same things with the added benefit of increased use of imagination since they can literally build anything. Now obviously the internet is what you make of it. Like anything the the internet can be a crutch or a tool. Kids can sit in front of youtube for 10 hours a day and learn nothing from it, but I'm not sure that wasn't also the case in the past. Keeping children on track probably requires more parental oversight than in the past, but I'm not exactly sure that's a bad thing either. Exploring the internet together with your child can easily be a way to bond with them while also creating a lifelong love of building and curiosity.
- novok 5y ago
  The big issue is you can't let your kids go outside, unsupervised, and go make friends with other kids in the neighborhood until about 12, which by that point they're basically teens and in a completely different stage of life. Before the 80s, you were able to do that. If you do, there is a chance that you get stressful CPS visits, criminal charges or your child taken away from you. And because nobody else is doing it, if you decide to be a rebel the kid will have nobody to play with anyway. Kids used to be way less of a time investment. There were more around, and they very easily latched on to playing with other neighborhood kids all day which acted like free daycare. You could send them out and tell them to be back before dark, feed them food, have family dinners, fix their boo boos and not much else. Now in today's limited age, kids can only play with their literal line of sight neighbors unsupervised and are mostly stuck inside, dependent on a parent to become a playmate because they eventually get bored of the video games. Or they get obsessed to an unhealthy degree. The independence you talk about is another kind, but still a dependent kind on the parents. I think a cell phone coordinated childhood with the permissiveness of the 70s is the ideal + all the info of the internet, but it's not something you can do in english countries. There is also a curse-of-knowledge aspect to today's age. The average teen does not seem to deal well with instagram and cell phones, especially girls. It's unique. I think society will eventually create an immune system to universal cellphones and social media, much like we did with TV, but until then we are dealing with it downside more than we should.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

How many trees did you climb?

giantg2 5y ago
Why?