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I know most users don't care but I won't install a browser extension that has full access to every page for this. Have you considered also supporting an API + b

I know most users don't care but I won't install a browser extension that has full access to every page for this. Have you considered also supporting an API + bookmarklet? It would be as simple as something like https://www.netvyne.com/?url=%s https://www.netvyne.com/?url=%s which would create and redirect you to the comment page for that URL and a simple bookmarklet to generate that URL for the current page. I also use Firefox so your extension isn't available anyways.

claudiusd 5y ago
The privacy risk of installing extensions that have full access to every page you visit is enormous. It includes the risk of exposing passwords and credit card numbers. Using a bookmarklet is a much better idea since users can control where they run.
- kevincox 5y ago
  And for a simple bookmarklet like this the source would be so trivial that you can read it and verify that all it does is redirect to the computed url.
- ksarw 5y ago
  Can you see how many comments a site already has using a bookmarklet as you browse? I also think that there is something to be said for being able to see the comments in the site itself, though perhaps that can be done as well. I'm actually not too familiar with bookmarklets, I'll have to read some more. I appreciate the tips!
  - kevincox 5y ago
    No, the comment indicator would be the missing feature. But personally I would very happily skip that feature for the huge security and privacy advantage. You could display the comments in-site but then you are bringing back all of the security and privacy concerns. (I guess you could have some middle-ground if the code to add the iframe is trivially simple?)
    - ksarw 5y ago
      What are your thoughts on the built-in network request disabling option or Chrome's option to disable unless clicked? I know you use Firefox, but for me these options seem to be sufficient for Chrome at least (and are already available). Let me know if I'm mistaken though; I want to make sure that all such concerns are addressed! I also think the badge could be dropped, but in initial stages when traffic is low I think it would really help with engagement.
      - kevincox 5y ago
        > built-in network request disabling option It is nice, but if I am not getting a comment indicator anyways I would rather just not trust your extension at all. > Chrome's option to disable unless clicked? This is pretty good. But I would still prefer a 1-line auditable bookmarklet rather than a large extension. > I also think the badge could be dropped, but in initial stages when traffic is low I think it would really help with engagement. Yeah, I can see that. It would be interesting if you could get it just with URL access. You could still check for comments and open the discussion page but you wouldn't need full site access permission. Due to how the permission model works this would probably need to be a separate extension but it would be interesting to have a "Netvyne Lite" version with much less permissions. ...that being said logging every visited site is still a lot of access. But I can see how the comment count is a valuable feature for some users even if it isn't worth the cost for me. Also for comment count checks are you protecting the URL in any way? For example checking for `sha3("netvyne-" + url)` instead of the raw URL. This way you aren't sending the URL of my URL-accessible Google Docs (for example) to your server.
        ksarw 5y ago
        I see, thanks for following up! We did try to reduce the permissions as much as possible, but I believe at this time every permission is required by some feature. I get your point though, and I'll try to see what else we can do in this regard. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, just to be clear we don't log every visited site (or log browsing in general); the only time data is added to the database is when the user actively adds a comment/creates content. Currently we send the URL as is; its only stored though if you are writing a comment or sharing the site with friends. I do like the hashing idea but ultimately when someone does leave a comment or share it, we do store it without hashing so later users can filer it and so on. Please let me know if I misunderstood your question!
ksarw 5y ago
I understand that full access to every page is a bit of a turn off; we don't store any data unless the user is explicitly posting a comment. Furthermore, we've built in an option to disable network requests unless you manually click on the extension icon. On top of that, Chrome allows you to manually disable/enable extensions for certain sites. API + bookmarklet is an interesting idea though, kind of more like hypothes.is/Disqus/Relay Chat (discontinued). Perhaps we can add it in the future! Also, the Firefox extension is in the works! You can sign up for the waitlist here if you'd like: https://forms.gle/Ksq3LuEBNSvNT5Br6 https://forms.gle/Ksq3LuEBNSvNT5Br6
- tux1968 5y ago
  FWIW, the waitlist page claims that the form is private and can't be accessed.
  - ksarw 5y ago
    Should be fixed now; thanks for the heads up!
- notafraudster 5y ago
  To give some broader context to the request: There is a pretty rich tradition of popular Chrome extensions being sold to third party companies who leverage existing browser permissions to add in advertising or other junk. This is not a technical problem, it's a social problem. You cannot credibly commit to not selling the extension. Options within the extension don't solve the problem because the new owner can ignore them and rely on the browser level permissions. The only way to mitigate this problem before it happens is to ask for limited permissions, ensuring the new owner would need to request higher permissions should they engage in the problematic behaviour.
  - ksarw 5y ago
    Ah I see, thanks for the additional context! I was aware of the toolbar extension scams that used to take place, but not of this particular pattern you are mentioning of hand-offs. Credibility is indeed a hard problem, with respect to both consumers and producers. I am reminded of the VLC story [0], and based on my experiences I think you can gain trust over time by your actions (hopefully this story is a valid one). Regarding least privilege, we have minimized the requested permissions to the best of our ability (please let me know if that's not the case). I'll be looking more into the bookmarklet idea too as another approach while trying to maintain the usability. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15372048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15372048

claudiusd 5y ago

The privacy risk of installing extensions that have full access to every page you visit is enormous. It includes the risk of exposing passwords and credit card numbers. Using a bookmarklet is a much better idea since users can control where they run.

kevincox 5y ago
And for a simple bookmarklet like this the source would be so trivial that you can read it and verify that all it does is redirect to the computed url.
ksarw 5y ago
Can you see how many comments a site already has using a bookmarklet as you browse? I also think that there is something to be said for being able to see the comments in the site itself, though perhaps that can be done as well. I'm actually not too familiar with bookmarklets, I'll have to read some more. I appreciate the tips!
- kevincox 5y ago
  No, the comment indicator would be the missing feature. But personally I would very happily skip that feature for the huge security and privacy advantage. You could display the comments in-site but then you are bringing back all of the security and privacy concerns. (I guess you could have some middle-ground if the code to add the iframe is trivially simple?)
  - ksarw 5y ago
    What are your thoughts on the built-in network request disabling option or Chrome's option to disable unless clicked? I know you use Firefox, but for me these options seem to be sufficient for Chrome at least (and are already available). Let me know if I'm mistaken though; I want to make sure that all such concerns are addressed! I also think the badge could be dropped, but in initial stages when traffic is low I think it would really help with engagement.
    - kevincox 5y ago
      > built-in network request disabling option It is nice, but if I am not getting a comment indicator anyways I would rather just not trust your extension at all. > Chrome's option to disable unless clicked? This is pretty good. But I would still prefer a 1-line auditable bookmarklet rather than a large extension. > I also think the badge could be dropped, but in initial stages when traffic is low I think it would really help with engagement. Yeah, I can see that. It would be interesting if you could get it just with URL access. You could still check for comments and open the discussion page but you wouldn't need full site access permission. Due to how the permission model works this would probably need to be a separate extension but it would be interesting to have a "Netvyne Lite" version with much less permissions. ...that being said logging every visited site is still a lot of access. But I can see how the comment count is a valuable feature for some users even if it isn't worth the cost for me. Also for comment count checks are you protecting the URL in any way? For example checking for `sha3("netvyne-" + url)` instead of the raw URL. This way you aren't sending the URL of my URL-accessible Google Docs (for example) to your server.
      - ksarw 5y ago
        I see, thanks for following up! We did try to reduce the permissions as much as possible, but I believe at this time every permission is required by some feature. I get your point though, and I'll try to see what else we can do in this regard. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, just to be clear we don't log every visited site (or log browsing in general); the only time data is added to the database is when the user actively adds a comment/creates content. Currently we send the URL as is; its only stored though if you are writing a comment or sharing the site with friends. I do like the hashing idea but ultimately when someone does leave a comment or share it, we do store it without hashing so later users can filer it and so on. Please let me know if I misunderstood your question!

ksarw 5y ago

I understand that full access to every page is a bit of a turn off; we don't store any data unless the user is explicitly posting a comment. Furthermore, we've built in an option to disable network requests unless you manually click on the extension icon. On top of that, Chrome allows you to manually disable/enable extensions for certain sites. API + bookmarklet is an interesting idea though, kind of more like hypothes.is/Disqus/Relay Chat (discontinued). Perhaps we can add it in the future! Also, the Firefox extension is in the works! You can sign up for the waitlist here if you'd like: https://forms.gle/Ksq3LuEBNSvNT5Br6 https://forms.gle/Ksq3LuEBNSvNT5Br6

tux1968 5y ago
FWIW, the waitlist page claims that the form is private and can't be accessed.
- ksarw 5y ago
  Should be fixed now; thanks for the heads up!
notafraudster 5y ago
To give some broader context to the request: There is a pretty rich tradition of popular Chrome extensions being sold to third party companies who leverage existing browser permissions to add in advertising or other junk. This is not a technical problem, it's a social problem. You cannot credibly commit to not selling the extension. Options within the extension don't solve the problem because the new owner can ignore them and rely on the browser level permissions. The only way to mitigate this problem before it happens is to ask for limited permissions, ensuring the new owner would need to request higher permissions should they engage in the problematic behaviour.
- ksarw 5y ago
  Ah I see, thanks for the additional context! I was aware of the toolbar extension scams that used to take place, but not of this particular pattern you are mentioning of hand-offs. Credibility is indeed a hard problem, with respect to both consumers and producers. I am reminded of the VLC story [0], and based on my experiences I think you can gain trust over time by your actions (hopefully this story is a valid one). Regarding least privilege, we have minimized the requested permissions to the best of our ability (please let me know if that's not the case). I'll be looking more into the bookmarklet idea too as another approach while trying to maintain the usability. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15372048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15372048