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Which is exactly what is happening in Ukraine now. Their attempts to align with NATO have Putin freaking out, with much saber-rattling & troop movement.

by zenkat 5y ago

radmuzom 5y ago
- philistine 5y ago
  This has been a problem for literally decades, and has not stopped collaboration and discussions in the past. The West is disingenuous with NATO expansion, but the USSR and Russia learned to deal with it. Now Putin is using it as his great retort as to why he must invade Ukraine, because he cannot trust the West to keep Ukraine in Russia's vice grip. Explain to me how Putin wants a deal with the West to stop NATO expansion, when all previous promises have been broken. What's different this time?
- eternalban 5y ago
  That promise is hearsay. Russia, however, did /sign/ an agreement with NATO in 90s and that agreement declares European countries can take "any measure for security" that they deem fit, including joining NATO. Look up "NATO-Russia Founding ACT".
- brnt 5y ago
  It is not up to NATO or Russia to decide what the former eastern block and former soviet states accede to. If they want to join NATO (and they do, for very obvious reasons), they can. Only in the old Cold War mindset is everything centrally determined by the head of state of some power block. Such a promise, if it existed, which it hasn't, wouldn't be valid anyway. My friend and I can't decide the bookclub is off limits to you. That's between you and the book club.
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > https://original.antiwar.com/Ted_Snider/2022/01/05/six-things-the-media-wont-tell-you-about-ukraine/ https://original.antiwar.com/Ted_Snider/2022/01/05/six-thing... Okay, let's be open minded for a second and look inside. >> The catalyst for the crisis today in Ukraine was the 2014 coup. That coup was set up and supported by the US. Yes, yes, CIA agents orchestrating the coup. A lot of my friends are still waiting for Obama to pay them for their services... Next 2 paragraph present "proofs": some "intercepted" call discussing future Ukrainian government between Nuland and Pyatt and statement that "Nuland then pressured security forces to stop guarding government buildings and allow the coup protesters in" without further explanation. Mrs. Nuland seems to be a real-life Wonder Woman by single-handedly ordering Ukrainian police and internal forces to just stand down. Can she use some of her superpowers to also order dismissal of Russian troops build up? >> It was a defensive reaction to the oppression of Russian-speaking people on its borders. Oppression? As a Russian-speaking person in Ukraine I don't feel oppressed now and didn't feel oppressed back then. That statement is a Russian propaganda trope. >> Contrary to the portrayal in the media of a people desperate to escape Russian and to run into the arms of NATO, Volodymyr Ishchenko, research associate at the Institute of East European Studies, Freie Universität Berlin, reports that "Ukrainians are far from unified in support of NATO membership." Oh, self-described marxist that "supports neither side of conflict" is a great neutral source of information /s In reality here is actual sociological data https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2021-nato-ukr.pdf https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2021-nato-ukr.pdf (to save you the click: 53,6% support NATO membership, 31,0% opposes and 15,2% are still undecided). Besides that the linked article is full of manipulations and outright bullshit. Please don't post your propaganda here. Thanks!
- Agoreddah 5y ago
  I stopped to read article after first headline "The NATO Promise", because it's very popular hoax narrative shared by eastern propaganda. Gorbachev personally said it's a fake. Besides, in 1990, Soviet Union had much more troubles to handle than dealing with NATO borders.
  - epolanski 5y ago
    There's an abundance of proofs behind the "not one inch eastwards" from multiple sources and different countries. This article provides some details more: https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-nato-eastward/ https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-n...

Which is exactly what is happening in Ukraine now. Their attempts to align with NATO have Putin freaking out, with much saber-rattling & troop movement.

by zenkat 5y ago

Which is exactly what is happening in Ukraine now. Their attempts to align with NATO have Putin freaking out, with much saber-rattling & troop movement.

radmuzom 5y ago

philistine 5y ago
This has been a problem for literally decades, and has not stopped collaboration and discussions in the past. The West is disingenuous with NATO expansion, but the USSR and Russia learned to deal with it. Now Putin is using it as his great retort as to why he must invade Ukraine, because he cannot trust the West to keep Ukraine in Russia's vice grip. Explain to me how Putin wants a deal with the West to stop NATO expansion, when all previous promises have been broken. What's different this time?
eternalban 5y ago
That promise is hearsay. Russia, however, did /sign/ an agreement with NATO in 90s and that agreement declares European countries can take "any measure for security" that they deem fit, including joining NATO. Look up "NATO-Russia Founding ACT".
brnt 5y ago
It is not up to NATO or Russia to decide what the former eastern block and former soviet states accede to. If they want to join NATO (and they do, for very obvious reasons), they can. Only in the old Cold War mindset is everything centrally determined by the head of state of some power block. Such a promise, if it existed, which it hasn't, wouldn't be valid anyway. My friend and I can't decide the bookclub is off limits to you. That's between you and the book club.
caskstrength 5y ago
> https://original.antiwar.com/Ted_Snider/2022/01/05/six-things-the-media-wont-tell-you-about-ukraine/ https://original.antiwar.com/Ted_Snider/2022/01/05/six-thing... Okay, let's be open minded for a second and look inside. >> The catalyst for the crisis today in Ukraine was the 2014 coup. That coup was set up and supported by the US. Yes, yes, CIA agents orchestrating the coup. A lot of my friends are still waiting for Obama to pay them for their services... Next 2 paragraph present "proofs": some "intercepted" call discussing future Ukrainian government between Nuland and Pyatt and statement that "Nuland then pressured security forces to stop guarding government buildings and allow the coup protesters in" without further explanation. Mrs. Nuland seems to be a real-life Wonder Woman by single-handedly ordering Ukrainian police and internal forces to just stand down. Can she use some of her superpowers to also order dismissal of Russian troops build up? >> It was a defensive reaction to the oppression of Russian-speaking people on its borders. Oppression? As a Russian-speaking person in Ukraine I don't feel oppressed now and didn't feel oppressed back then. That statement is a Russian propaganda trope. >> Contrary to the portrayal in the media of a people desperate to escape Russian and to run into the arms of NATO, Volodymyr Ishchenko, research associate at the Institute of East European Studies, Freie Universität Berlin, reports that "Ukrainians are far from unified in support of NATO membership." Oh, self-described marxist that "supports neither side of conflict" is a great neutral source of information /s In reality here is actual sociological data https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2021-nato-ukr.pdf https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2021-nato-ukr.pdf (to save you the click: 53,6% support NATO membership, 31,0% opposes and 15,2% are still undecided). Besides that the linked article is full of manipulations and outright bullshit. Please don't post your propaganda here. Thanks!
Agoreddah 5y ago
I stopped to read article after first headline "The NATO Promise", because it's very popular hoax narrative shared by eastern propaganda. Gorbachev personally said it's a fake. Besides, in 1990, Soviet Union had much more troubles to handle than dealing with NATO borders.
- epolanski 5y ago
  There's an abundance of proofs behind the "not one inch eastwards" from multiple sources and different countries. This article provides some details more: https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-nato-eastward/ https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-n...