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Well in the context of the emails: no, Java failed at delivering. Solaris OS is now history and many programming language competitors raised and won over it at

Well in the context of the emails: no, Java failed at delivering. Solaris OS is now history and many programming language competitors raised and won over it at its own game in all areas but android, although it was an industry leader for quite long time its time is over and now it is mainly corporative legacy. Even as general programming language Python and JavaScript took over, and in dedicated areas like webservers it’s been long since Java’s time is gone. The analysis in the replies is correct.

whimsicalism 5y ago
For very complex business logic backend/middleware, who is beating Java? Only contenders I can think of are C# or Go.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  C# isn't, it's highly successful but locked into one ecosystem. .NET Core is very new (by enterprise standards) and hasn't yet had time to supplant usecases for Java. Go is even newer and even less successful vs Java. Firstly it's awful in large business logic heavy programs. It's getting better with generics but it's error handling and module structure mean it's very ill-suited to the sort of software Java thrives in. I think the only real competitor to Java (both on Android and backend/desktop) is Kotlin.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    FWIW, there is no ".NET Core" anymore. Now its all just ".NET", whether or not you're running it on Windows or Linux. Theoretically its all just the same from the application's perspective, there's no separate toolchain or library.
    - jpgvm 5y ago
      While that might be true now enterprise is still running stuff on .NET 2.X and .NET 4.X is still dominant overall. It will be years until enterprise shops are caught up to where .NET is atm, that is just the way of things. FWIW it's not much better in Java-land. Most enterprise shops have apps they refuse to invest in upgrading off of Java 6. Java 8 still has huge share though thankfully in the last few years Java 11 is catching on. I like Java and C# a lot, they appeal to me above the rest of the langs for practical reasons but I don't miss distancing myself from actual enterprise development - that is where passion goes to die.
- nudpiedo 5y ago
  I used to think like that just to realize that the main two variables to guess the language a project got started are the industry and the year the coding began. For example, projects that got started 10 years ago are very likely to have got in Java started (as it still even was the main programming language teacher at universities.) New projects are more likely to get started in python, typescript, go or even c++ just depending the industry. It’s been a while since I do not see a new brand project starting in Java. Someone may dismiss my opinion with a statistic, and it will also be fine. I don’t think Java did endanger Microsoft,
numbsafari 5y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, Java is successful, both as a language and as a runtime. Obviously. You can't argue with billions of Android phones. Or the (possible?) news that FB has already given up and will be simply using Android for Meta. I don't think a lot of folks here were around at the time to remember that a lot of the early hype around Java and the Web were both about unseating Microsoft. Microsoft has thrived. Sun is in the dustbin of history. Yes, mountains of cool tech came out of Sun, but as a company, as a existential threat to MS? Java didn't deliver. That's not to say it couldn't have, had Sun managed it differently. But if Sun had managed it differently, it probably wouldn't have been the success that it is as a technology.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Just a note but android doesn’t run javaTM, especially not in a runtime. It compiles Google’s decade old java version AOT and native code gets executed on mobile phones.
  - fundad 5y ago
    Until iPhone, Java on Linux was the standard for smartphones. Was that Java Micro editon? I think the handset makers actually licensed Java/JDK/JVM, not sure it cost money or control or what. Without cloning the language, Alphabet would never have been able to standardize non-Apple phones under one advertising platform.
pritambarhate 5y ago
> Even as general programming language Python and JavaScript took over, and in dedicated areas like webservers it’s been long since Java’s time is gone. I don't think this is true. Yes in the US in the startups Python, RoR and JS are more popular but in the enterprise Java (and .Net to some extent) still rules. In India right now the demand for Java programmers is sky high. Salaries for Java programmers have increased by 100% or more in the past 6 months or so. Actually overall salaries for programmers have increased a lot in India in the past 6 months due to very high outsourcing demand but Java is in especially high demand. Note: I am in the outsourcing industry since past 12 years.
- nudpiedo 5y ago
  I’ve been part of companies which decide to outsource and very often what they send to India is the legacy code no one wants in research labs or headquarters, so it makes all sense to me.

whimsicalism 5y ago

For very complex business logic backend/middleware, who is beating Java? Only contenders I can think of are C# or Go.

jpgvm 5y ago
C# isn't, it's highly successful but locked into one ecosystem. .NET Core is very new (by enterprise standards) and hasn't yet had time to supplant usecases for Java. Go is even newer and even less successful vs Java. Firstly it's awful in large business logic heavy programs. It's getting better with generics but it's error handling and module structure mean it's very ill-suited to the sort of software Java thrives in. I think the only real competitor to Java (both on Android and backend/desktop) is Kotlin.
- vel0city 5y ago
  FWIW, there is no ".NET Core" anymore. Now its all just ".NET", whether or not you're running it on Windows or Linux. Theoretically its all just the same from the application's perspective, there's no separate toolchain or library.
  - jpgvm 5y ago
    While that might be true now enterprise is still running stuff on .NET 2.X and .NET 4.X is still dominant overall. It will be years until enterprise shops are caught up to where .NET is atm, that is just the way of things. FWIW it's not much better in Java-land. Most enterprise shops have apps they refuse to invest in upgrading off of Java 6. Java 8 still has huge share though thankfully in the last few years Java 11 is catching on. I like Java and C# a lot, they appeal to me above the rest of the langs for practical reasons but I don't miss distancing myself from actual enterprise development - that is where passion goes to die.
nudpiedo 5y ago
I used to think like that just to realize that the main two variables to guess the language a project got started are the industry and the year the coding began. For example, projects that got started 10 years ago are very likely to have got in Java started (as it still even was the main programming language teacher at universities.) New projects are more likely to get started in python, typescript, go or even c++ just depending the industry. It’s been a while since I do not see a new brand project starting in Java. Someone may dismiss my opinion with a statistic, and it will also be fine. I don’t think Java did endanger Microsoft,

numbsafari 5y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, Java is successful, both as a language and as a runtime. Obviously. You can't argue with billions of Android phones. Or the (possible?) news that FB has already given up and will be simply using Android for Meta. I don't think a lot of folks here were around at the time to remember that a lot of the early hype around Java and the Web were both about unseating Microsoft. Microsoft has thrived. Sun is in the dustbin of history. Yes, mountains of cool tech came out of Sun, but as a company, as a existential threat to MS? Java didn't deliver. That's not to say it couldn't have, had Sun managed it differently. But if Sun had managed it differently, it probably wouldn't have been the success that it is as a technology.

kaba0 5y ago
Just a note but android doesn’t run javaTM, especially not in a runtime. It compiles Google’s decade old java version AOT and native code gets executed on mobile phones.
- fundad 5y ago
  Until iPhone, Java on Linux was the standard for smartphones. Was that Java Micro editon? I think the handset makers actually licensed Java/JDK/JVM, not sure it cost money or control or what. Without cloning the language, Alphabet would never have been able to standardize non-Apple phones under one advertising platform.

pritambarhate 5y ago

> Even as general programming language Python and JavaScript took over, and in dedicated areas like webservers it’s been long since Java’s time is gone. I don't think this is true. Yes in the US in the startups Python, RoR and JS are more popular but in the enterprise Java (and .Net to some extent) still rules. In India right now the demand for Java programmers is sky high. Salaries for Java programmers have increased by 100% or more in the past 6 months or so. Actually overall salaries for programmers have increased a lot in India in the past 6 months due to very high outsourcing demand but Java is in especially high demand. Note: I am in the outsourcing industry since past 12 years.

nudpiedo 5y ago
I’ve been part of companies which decide to outsource and very often what they send to India is the legacy code no one wants in research labs or headquarters, so it makes all sense to me.