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This particular article is exceptionally weak and fails to address substantially all of the criticisms levied by Stolfi (which is what this is really in respons

This particular article is exceptionally weak and fails to address substantially all of the criticisms levied by Stolfi (which is what this is really in response to). [1] It spends a lot of the time discussing the SEC's "warning signs" / red flags that something may be a Ponzi scheme which are symptoms and not causes. Just how a traditional Ponzi scheme may manifest within the context of traditional markets like 'issues with paperwork.' Nobody is going to claim that you need to have 'issues with paperwork' to be a Ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is best thought of an a distributed or unbundled take on a Ponzi scheme where instead of having a single centralized authority run the whole show, various parties all collude directly or via incentive structure to achieve the same fundamental results. > Investment Returns: Not Promised They 100% are - by every single shillfluencer account on Twitter, on Reddit, on TikTok and yeah, even here from time to time. I've been NGMI'd here at least several hundred times. > Open Source: The Opposite of Secrecy Everyone agrees the chain is transparent. However, that's the kind of transparency that doesn't matter at all in this context. What makes it a Ponzi scheme isn't that 1BTC=1BTC, it's that you have shady Inspector Gadget themed Bahamian shadow banks printing un-backed ersatz dollars and pushing the price up to create the illusion of gains. You have exchange "outages" as soon as the price starts dropping - but only when it starts dropping. You have spoof orders, wash trading, tape painting - every trick in the book - to make people think they've gained when in reality, they have not. > No Pre-Mine Yeah, all that means is it's not a security under Howey. > Leaderless Growth Yes, it's an old scheme with a fresh coat of paint. > Section Summary: Clearly Not a Ponzi Scheme Agree to disagree. I'm with Stolfi on this one. 1. It is sold as an investment, with some mysticism around how exactly it is appreciating in value. 2. All gains paid out to previous participants come from new participants. 3. Entities (miners, exchanges) are constantly extracting welfare for self-enrichment creating a negative sum coefficient. [1] https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-ponzi.html https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-pon...

serverholic 5y ago
So are pokemon cards a ponzi scheme? Stamp collecting? Gold? Paintings?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > Gold. Gold is a commodity with intrinsic value. It is an input into electronics manufacturing - in fact, you'd have a hard time making Bitcoin miners without it. It's also shiny and people like it, which adds to the demand. Folks are speculating on future commodity value. I don't think it's a good investment, but that's just me. > Pokemon Cards, Stamps? No, those are unique non-fungible items. Much closer to NFTs than BTC. There is no central entity extracting value by increasing the supply of these items, as each item is unique or at least fixed in supply.
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    Gold is not traded on its commodity value. Its been traded for thousands of years because it is durable and difficult to produce. People who believe in Bitcoin compromised some sheen to make those two most important attributes tenfold more potent.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > Gold is not traded on its commodity value. I understand that, but it has commodity value. > Its been traded for thousands of years because it is durable and difficult to produce. People who believe in Bitcoin compromised some sheen to make those two most important attributes tenfold more potent. Nah, they got suckered into a Ponzi scheme.
      - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
        No, you do not understand. Bitcoin simply is more durable and difficult to produce than gold. If that's not what you value then fair enough, but don't go around stating your opinion as fact unless you want to be guilty of what you accuse others of doing.
        arcticbull 5y ago
        > No, you do not understand. Bitcoin simply is more durable and difficult to produce than gold. That's got nothing to do with its price. Nothing is more difficult for someone else to produce than the hair on my head, but that's worthless.

serverholic 5y ago

So are pokemon cards a ponzi scheme? Stamp collecting? Gold? Paintings?

arcticbull 5y ago
> Gold. Gold is a commodity with intrinsic value. It is an input into electronics manufacturing - in fact, you'd have a hard time making Bitcoin miners without it. It's also shiny and people like it, which adds to the demand. Folks are speculating on future commodity value. I don't think it's a good investment, but that's just me. > Pokemon Cards, Stamps? No, those are unique non-fungible items. Much closer to NFTs than BTC. There is no central entity extracting value by increasing the supply of these items, as each item is unique or at least fixed in supply.
- mattwilsonn888 5y ago
  Gold is not traded on its commodity value. Its been traded for thousands of years because it is durable and difficult to produce. People who believe in Bitcoin compromised some sheen to make those two most important attributes tenfold more potent.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > Gold is not traded on its commodity value. I understand that, but it has commodity value. > Its been traded for thousands of years because it is durable and difficult to produce. People who believe in Bitcoin compromised some sheen to make those two most important attributes tenfold more potent. Nah, they got suckered into a Ponzi scheme.
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      No, you do not understand. Bitcoin simply is more durable and difficult to produce than gold. If that's not what you value then fair enough, but don't go around stating your opinion as fact unless you want to be guilty of what you accuse others of doing.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        > No, you do not understand. Bitcoin simply is more durable and difficult to produce than gold. That's got nothing to do with its price. Nothing is more difficult for someone else to produce than the hair on my head, but that's worthless.