5 ms·

What terrible phrasing is "they cease to be productive and look for ways to while away their time." We don't live to work, we work to live. Once less work is r

What terrible phrasing is "they cease to be productive and look for ways to while away their time." We don't live to work, we work to live. Once less work is required to live, more living can be done. Some people may 'while away their time', others do valuable things that don't produce monetary value.

mc32 5y ago
Progress depends on people or, the economy in general, progressing. If everyone is happy where they are and want no more, there is no need to innovate and progress stops. That may be fine if we think we have achieved all we need to achieve as a society or species but most think we have a bit of a ways to go still before we can declare victory.
- misnome 5y ago
  What about people who are made happy by innovating and progressing?
  - mc32 5y ago
    When social support for that goes away, it's only the "crazy" who would do that just because. But without societal support it's a dead-end. There are countries with lots of people --but whose contribution to innovation is substandard. There is no societal support so innovation is stunted. It’s like thinking justice will happen just because… No, it happens because society supports justice. Justice or innovation don’t just “happen”.
    - soco 5y ago
      Why should innovation lose support? It would fall under "people do what they like" so the innovators would go on innovating. And if the innovations bring even more to the society of course they will be adopted.
      - mc32 5y ago
        Let’s look at the Soviet Union to Russia transition. The state no longer had the same demand for space innovation. Their tech sector has stagnated. People didn’t carry on just because they could.
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      Innovation does just happen, but only under circumstances that need it. People support it because it makes their lives easier. If it doesn't do that then honestly who cares? Don't confuse innovation in general with how many startups the country has.
      - mc32 5y ago
        There has to be some pull. If people are conditioned to be happy with say UBI + Netflix and conditioned to think that you should have a small impact on the planet (little consumption) and your daily needs met (food, shelter) innovation will go down in a generation or so. [to answer weakfish who appears "dead": no it's not wrong to revert to a subsistence existence, but it has trade-offs. Just be aware of the trade-offs.]
        weakfish 5y ago
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  In the US a lot of people are very, very unhappy. The lack of real political and economic agency for most of the population is one of the defining features of US capitalism.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    Citation needed. There are all sorts of measures of gross happiness out there.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - el_ravager 5y ago
      Why bring in outside materials into this conversation? Do we lack the capacity for reason?
thereddaikon 5y ago
This is also not a new phenomena but something that has been slowly increasing over human history. Before agriculture, humans spent almost all of their time hunting and gathering. Agriculture freed up some time and every major technological revolution has in some way made society more productive and efficient allowing us for more time not working. At some point in the 19th century the concept of leisure time came around and its only been growing. Reducing the work required by each individual to survive and support society is a natural effect of technological progression. If people are getting more work then we are regressing.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >Before agriculture, humans spent almost all of their time hunting and gathering. Agriculture freed up some time Agriculture is more work than hunting and gathering, but it's a much more consistent food source. https://www.zmescience.com/science/hunter-gatherer-farmer-time-834234234/ https://www.zmescience.com/science/hunter-gatherer-farmer-ti...
  - monocasa 5y ago
    And agriculture itself is less work than we think of. Medieval peasants worked less hours than we do. https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_...
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      > And agriculture itself is less work than we think of. That depends entirely upon the ratio of agriculture to other industries in a society and the level of automation. People operating today's corporate farms in the US probably work fewer hours than their 1920s analogues, but produce far more output. People operating today's small/"family" farms are probably about on par in terms of hours worked, but still produce much more and there are far fewer of them.
      - monocasa 5y ago
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
I haven't though it through in detail, but I think it has to do with the intersection of these two things. Netflix and ice cream is pure leisure, toiling in the mines is pure work, but there's significant overlap...I'm sure for many here working on a personal coding project can be both a joy in the sense of leisure and also productive work in the sense that other people would pay for it, or it brings significant economic value to them. So...the middle of the Venn is the important part. Insofar as leisure is both joyful and productive, good. Insofar as we continue the "opiates of the masses" arms race and make ever better Netflix + ice cream, bad.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

mc32 5y ago

Progress depends on people or, the economy in general, progressing. If everyone is happy where they are and want no more, there is no need to innovate and progress stops. That may be fine if we think we have achieved all we need to achieve as a society or species but most think we have a bit of a ways to go still before we can declare victory.

misnome 5y ago
What about people who are made happy by innovating and progressing?
- mc32 5y ago
  When social support for that goes away, it's only the "crazy" who would do that just because. But without societal support it's a dead-end. There are countries with lots of people --but whose contribution to innovation is substandard. There is no societal support so innovation is stunted. It’s like thinking justice will happen just because… No, it happens because society supports justice. Justice or innovation don’t just “happen”.
  - soco 5y ago
    Why should innovation lose support? It would fall under "people do what they like" so the innovators would go on innovating. And if the innovations bring even more to the society of course they will be adopted.
    - mc32 5y ago
      Let’s look at the Soviet Union to Russia transition. The state no longer had the same demand for space innovation. Their tech sector has stagnated. People didn’t carry on just because they could.
  - hiptobecubic 5y ago
    Innovation does just happen, but only under circumstances that need it. People support it because it makes their lives easier. If it doesn't do that then honestly who cares? Don't confuse innovation in general with how many startups the country has.
    - mc32 5y ago
      There has to be some pull. If people are conditioned to be happy with say UBI + Netflix and conditioned to think that you should have a small impact on the planet (little consumption) and your daily needs met (food, shelter) innovation will go down in a generation or so. [to answer weakfish who appears "dead": no it's not wrong to revert to a subsistence existence, but it has trade-offs. Just be aware of the trade-offs.]
      - weakfish 5y ago
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
In the US a lot of people are very, very unhappy. The lack of real political and economic agency for most of the population is one of the defining features of US capitalism.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Citation needed. There are all sorts of measures of gross happiness out there.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - el_ravager 5y ago
    Why bring in outside materials into this conversation? Do we lack the capacity for reason?

thereddaikon 5y ago

This is also not a new phenomena but something that has been slowly increasing over human history. Before agriculture, humans spent almost all of their time hunting and gathering. Agriculture freed up some time and every major technological revolution has in some way made society more productive and efficient allowing us for more time not working. At some point in the 19th century the concept of leisure time came around and its only been growing. Reducing the work required by each individual to survive and support society is a natural effect of technological progression. If people are getting more work then we are regressing.

Clubber 5y ago
>Before agriculture, humans spent almost all of their time hunting and gathering. Agriculture freed up some time Agriculture is more work than hunting and gathering, but it's a much more consistent food source. https://www.zmescience.com/science/hunter-gatherer-farmer-time-834234234/ https://www.zmescience.com/science/hunter-gatherer-farmer-ti...
- monocasa 5y ago
  And agriculture itself is less work than we think of. Medieval peasants worked less hours than we do. https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_...
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    > And agriculture itself is less work than we think of. That depends entirely upon the ratio of agriculture to other industries in a society and the level of automation. People operating today's corporate farms in the US probably work fewer hours than their 1920s analogues, but produce far more output. People operating today's small/"family" farms are probably about on par in terms of hours worked, but still produce much more and there are far fewer of them.
    - monocasa 5y ago

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

I haven't though it through in detail, but I think it has to do with the intersection of these two things. Netflix and ice cream is pure leisure, toiling in the mines is pure work, but there's significant overlap...I'm sure for many here working on a personal coding project can be both a joy in the sense of leisure and also productive work in the sense that other people would pay for it, or it brings significant economic value to them. So...the middle of the Venn is the important part. Insofar as leisure is both joyful and productive, good. Insofar as we continue the "opiates of the masses" arms race and make ever better Netflix + ice cream, bad.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]